Toshiro conflict counters

[shakes1066]

If Toshiro is killed in a turn does he lose the counters he has or drop them? If it is drop them could he then raise more than once a turn if he got summoned back by Yan Lo?

[Tokaji]

This is a really good question, but I don't think they would drop. Generally, and I don't have rule references for this, counters only drop if there is something on the board that can pick them up or make use of them. So since Toshi is the only one who can do that, and he would be off the board, I would say no.

[Clement]

I don't have my books with me, but I think they're conflict tokens, not counters. That means they are stuck on Toshi and leave with him.

[xKoBiEx]

Tokens and counters remain with the model as it dies.

[EnternalVoid]

Tokens and counters remain with the model as it dies.

Actually per the Rule Manual page 18, "Models only drop Counters they carry when they are removed from play". Thus people drop counters when they die, that is how you steal their corpse and scrap counters.

As for Tokens, I believe he loses them. Tokens represent ongoing effects currently affecting a model, as per page 19. Also they "Only Track Effects". As Tokens are not dropped you don't place anything on the table to pick up. So if Toshiro dies, you are not getting any conflict tokens he had on him back so best to avoid him dying if all possible.

[shakes1066]

Thanks guys that is how I thought it would play. Also noticed his spell is a (1) not a (0) so he can cast it twice a turn if you have the cards so not so worried now about losing tokens as you should be able to use them up on a turn it looks like he might die in.

Luke.

[Gruesome]

Knowing its a stretch, I'll throw this out there anyway... The model is removed when he dies, but his card very specifically stays in the game.(Assuming you were close enough, etc.) So, are tokens with his model or with his card?

[Adran]

Model.

I think the words are "...this model gains..." (no card/book to hand but other tokens are phrased that way)

[Pox]

indeed it is "this model gains." (says the person who has run off with Adrans book!)

[Mordeqai]

I always assumed the new resummoned Toshiro was a "new" Toshiro - Same reasoning Izamu can get 2 activations in the same turn. So I would vote no, and have been playing it as such (Although, I'd love to know if I don't need the reset)

[CRC]

Conflict are tokens. You don't drop tokens. (See poison tokens, burning tokens, etc.)

If the conflict was a counter, then it would drop, and the new Toshiro could pick it up, but it's not.

[Gruesome]

Mechanically for the game, I get that its a "new" toshiro.

But Fluff-wise, it does not seem that way to me. "He" is just in his "relic state". Like a genie that has returned to the bottle.

I am not trying to use that as any sort of argument for why he keeps tokens or anything, just saying how I think of the ancestors when they are in relic form. Whereas if Yan is not there to "catch" the relic, it falls and shatters on the ground and now they are actually GONE...

[Adran]

Mechanically for the game, I get that its a "new" toshiro.

But Fluff-wise, it does not seem that way to me. "He" is just in his "relic state". Like a genie that has returned to the bottle.

I am not trying to use that as any sort of argument for why he keeps tokens or anything, just saying how I think of the ancestors when they are in relic form. Whereas if Yan is not there to "catch" the relic, it falls and shatters on the ground and now they are actually GONE...

Death induces a short term memory lost.

Toshiro can't quite remember what happened for the period just before his death. He doesn't rememebr how conflicted he was.

[CRC]

I interpret the Conflict counters more like adrenaline or rage. When he gets angry enough, he starts to call upon his vassals of long ago.

When he dies, it calms him down. The path is outside of time, so as far as he's concerned, it's an entirely new battle.

[ClayWeeks]

Thanks guys that is how I thought it would play. Also noticed his spell is a (1) not a (0) so he can cast it twice a turn if you have the cards so not so worried now about losing tokens as you should be able to use them up on a turn it looks like he might die in.

Luke.

Unfortunately, Eternal Servitude has AR: Discard four Conflict Tokens. which means you have to discard the four Conflict Tokens as part of declaring the spell, not after a successful casting. Therefore, if you're gonna be casting it twice a turn, you better have 8 tokens.

[i_was_like_you]

Unfortunately, Eternal Servitude has AR: Discard four Conflict Tokens. which means you have to discard the four Conflict Tokens as part of declaring the spell, not after a successful casting. Therefore, if you're gonna be casting it twice a turn, you better have 8 tokens.

Incorrect. Additional Requirements (AR) do not need to be met until the Caster Meets Additional Requirements step of the Casting Duel, which happens after the Caster Determines Final Duel Total step. Granted the phrasing on top of page 52 seems like it all happens at once, but the chart on 51 and the steps spelled out (no pun intended) on pages 52 and 53 makes it clear.

Edited April 27, 2013 by i_was_like_you

[CRC]

That's really interesting:

The Chart of page 51 puts AR in step 3d (after defender determines final duel total).

The text puts the AR in step 2d (after caster determines final duel total).

In either case, you don't have to spend the AR until you know you've at least passed the casting duel.

[i_was_like_you]

Yeah, it's a bit muddy aside from that distinction. Prior to knowing that, I had some rather disappointing moments in game, as I'd spent a stone, sacked a model, taken wds, sacked counters, etc., then cast the spell only to have it fail. Did more reading and saw that I'd been doing it wrong.far less disappointing to have a spell fizzle than it is to ruin my position in the game while having it do so.

[ClayWeeks]

Thank you so much! Philosophy of Uncertainty HERE I COME!