why didn't wyrd make avatars more interesting

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yan Lo already "Manifests" as the game goes on.

[DeleteAccount]

Of course I want to see 10 thunder avatars, even if it's just to see the badass models they get XD

[rancor709]

Yan Lo already "Manifests" as the game goes on.

Very true one of my favorite mechanics in the game.

And Yes Razhem so do I, would love to see the models they could come up with, particularly knowing they'll be plastic. A Huggy Lynch Combo base gives me goosebumps in a good way.,

[*Jack*]

I can see like you said, a lot of them arent the most competitive option, but I dont think they're meant to be.

I have about 12-15 crews now, and I only own 2 different avatars. Colette (Whom I've never used, but wanted the models) and Zoraida (On paint table). The thing that puts me off getting more is the price. £20 for 3 colette models is pushing it, £25-30 for avatars like hamelin, dreamer, sonnia and seamus put me off. Just dont fancy paying that for something I wont use every game, and wont even be guarenteed to use when I take them. There's no need to sell your tina crew just because you dont like the avatar though, The crew functions really well without it.

If anything, the only trick wyrd missed out on was not making some avatars powerful to compensate for their undercompetitive master form. (Oh wait, they did this with ramos )

[nilus]

Of course I want to see 10 thunder avatars, even if it's just to see the badass models they get XD

I think with 10T, two of the Masters were designed with gimmicks that work in place of Avatars. Yan Los ability to get better in the game. McCabes ability to customize himself and play differently each game.

But yeah I would still love to see Avatars of them

[Odin1981]

I can see like you said, a lot of them arent the most competitive option, but I dont think they're meant to be.

I have about 12-15 crews now, and I only own 2 different avatars. Colette (Whom I've never used, but wanted the models) and Zoraida (On paint table). The thing that puts me off getting more is the price. £20 for 3 colette models is pushing it, £25-30 for avatars like hamelin, dreamer, sonnia and seamus put me off. Just dont fancy paying that for something I wont use every game, and wont even be guarenteed to use when I take them. There's no need to sell your tina crew just because you dont like the avatar though, The crew functions really well without it.

If anything, the only trick wyrd missed out on was not making some avatars powerful to compensate for their undercompetitive master form. (Oh wait, they did this with ramos )

Ramos isn't bad non avatar. The main thing though is you for the most part have to abandon the "I take crew box + 1-2 additional models mindset" with him. I think that is pretty much the main problem with most of the "underpowered" masters. People our often unwilling to not scrap the fluff says I should include x aspect.

I own 1 avatar (sonnia). I think she is decent but when I play her now I often don't use her. I find she isn't really needed (avatar) and the one advantage she has over reg sonnia (slightly better melee capability) that is the thing that if/when an opposing crew gets into melee with her chances our you just lost.

I find avatars are cool in that they have a "sub game" component but they often aren't needed. Colette seems interesting in that pre avatar quite a few people where complaining that you had to run showgirls with her to get the best results. But with her avatar you don't have to run her with a lot of showgirls. I am sure their are plenty of other examples like the above mentioned.

I honestly believe the 10t won't have avatars in part due to the maturation of the game designers. Take a look at all of the masters outta book 4. They are all usuable. They don't have many weaknesses either. They actually feel like "masters" where as in previous books (book 2 excluded) they masters don't all feel like they are at another level compared to minions. This is not to say they can't or won't have avatars but I feel they our complete without them.

[Omenbringer]

I own several Avatars (9 total across all the factions, Som'er, Seamus, McMourning, Rasputina, Lady Justice, Perdita, Lilith, Zoraida and Pandora) and played against several others quite a bit (Sonnia, Kirai, Nicodem, Colette, Viktoria's and Leveticus). I have found each very intersting and challenging.

My own nemesis is Sonnia who I have found very potent and challenging to face.

I think the main issues most players have with avatars is that they think they have to rush the manifest, that they have to get them out every game and that they are better versions of the Masters. They really were designed to be mid to late game pieces. Additionally, by just being attached they introduce a dilema for the opponent (do I work to prevent the manifest or not worry about it). A master that has an Avatar attached tends to attract an inordinant amount of attention which in turn reduces pressure on the rest of the crew. Lastly, Avatars weren't intended to be better versions of the Masters more like alternate more focused versions (think lateral move vice promotion).

Edited December 30, 2012 by Omenbringer

[ooshawn]

The thing is we are pretty much just saying the same thing over and over . Some people are like omg they are bad, then others are saying its just a lateral shift etc. The point is alot of people think they suck. it doesn't matter if 30% to 60% of people like the avatars and own one or two. It should be 100% and people buying 3 or 4 of them. Probably the same amount that wanted hamelin needed and nekima changed.

[Gorbad]

I don't quite agree with that it should be 100%. People really shouldn't feel they need to buy the avatars. They should be like everything else, neat options to pick up if you like them. In many ways we have a similar issue with totems, don't we? Some of them are seen a lot and some are hardly ever seen. The main difference seems to be that they were included from the start so we have all been used to that and that totems are a lot cheaper (money) to buy. The cost is the main reason I don't have any avatars yet. Buy an avatar for one master or most of a whole crew.

As for how they work out in game, the mechanics of manifesting is neat and makes them quite interesting and while it does seem like some of them could use an extra touch/look I actually think that as a first go at it, for what they intended, its quite well done. I expect them to be smoothed out and adjusted a bit in a new edition soon(ish) and hopefully we might even start to see different avatars for some masters come out. But I don't think they need to rush that or do everybody all in one go.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Gorbad

[nilus]

The thing is we are pretty much just saying the same thing over and over . Some people are like omg they are bad, then others are saying its just a lateral shift etc. The point is alot of people think they suck. it doesn't matter if 30% to 60% of people like the avatars and own one or two. It should be 100% and people buying 3 or 4 of them. Probably the same amount that wanted hamelin needed and nekima changed.

Expecting 100% of any internet community to agree on something is madness. I personally think the avatar haters are just a small vocal minority.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Expecting 100% of any internet community to agree on something is madness. I personally think the avatar haters are just a small vocal minority.

Why the need to be dismissive of those you don't agree with?

[Gruesome]

Why the need to be dismissive of those you don't agree with?

I do not think his words were dismissive, I think you are defensive.

In the "red joker wars" earlier this year, I was described as being in the "vocal minority", but never felt "dismissed" as a consequence and actually got a lot of interesting perspectives from those threads.

In the "pre-measure" debates, I believe I was in the majority that WANTS it, but learned more about what people liked about not-premeasuring and also was enlightened to more reasons why some really wanted it. (Different types of physical handicaps that I had never considered)

We never "dismissed" the people that did not want pre-measuring...

No one has said that Avatars are PERFECT. I think some of them could use some tweaking and I think that some could use some small changes in their manifest requirements... But this is a thread in which you said:

I think Avatars are were a bad idea, from conception to execution.

If you believe you are in the majority with that opinion, then I think your counting skills are suspect.

Now, what your local players think, I do not know. If they are all lock-step in alignment with you on that point, they must either not have forum accounts or not feel strongly enough to throw in here...

[nilus]

Why the need to be dismissive of those you don't agree with?

Not being dismissive, just stating my opinion.

OP said "a lot" of people don't like them and my personally experience tells me otherwise and my experience on these forums only shows me there are a handful of vocal people who hate them.

Are they perfect...no

Are they broken...nope

Are some better then others....yes

Do they need a Hamelin or Dreamer level errata(or any errata at all)...I don't think so.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Personally I feel like the mannfest part could be better, instead of two choices there were two of four or five or even six and depending on which two you completed effect how the master manifests

Eg for Lilith

Blood frenzy: Have a combained total of 5 blood on friendly Nephilm

Lilith garden: Successfully cast illusionary forest twice on two seperate turns

Lost in the forest Deal a total 10 damage to a enemy model next to a forest

Malifaux's master: Successfully cast transposition to swap one enemy model and one friendly model

After mannfesting Lilith, chose two of the requirement that you met and gain the following abilties

Blood Frenzy: until the end of the closing phase Frendly Nephilim within 6" gain a to casting or channeling grow or mature

Lost in the woods: place three peaces of woods terrain on more than 3" in diameter completely within 12" of Lilith

Lilith's garden everywhere within 6" of the centre of the board becomes forest terrain

Master of Malifaux: chose four models you control you may replace them any where within 6" of where any of them started

The rest works the same but instead of having one or two requirements to mannefest you have one or two out of six, having met three isn't any different from having two and you only gain a maxium of two bonus

Also saying avatar aren't interesting isn't constructive or helpful in anyway and worse than saying than "this model is broken plze fix"

[Dumb Luck]

I think just moving the Manifest clock down in AP cost would help wonders. ARamos and ASomer (to name a few) are good pieces to buff (generally thought to be) poorer Masters. But you invest so much time in getting them out ...

[Jonas Albrecht]

If you believe you are in the majority with that opinion, then I think your counting skills are suspect.

Now, what your local players think, I do not know. If they are all lock-step in alignment with you on that point, they must either not have forum accounts or not feel strongly enough to throw in here...

I believe being in the majority has nothing to do with it. I am however, familiar enough with gaming forums to know two things: The first is that there's always a dominant narrative (often based only on the opinions of popular forum goers), and that the boards make up a fraction of the total playerbase.

[Gruesome]

I believe being in the majority has nothing to do with it. I am however, familiar enough with gaming forums to know two things: The first is that there's always a dominant narrative (often based only on the opinions of popular forum goers), and that the boards make up a fraction of the total playerbase.

I agree.

But YOU were the one making the assertions of what is used and what is not. Now, if you have some sort of keen insight to the entire Malifaux playerbase that is beyond your playing group and these forums, then by all means, share your findings.

Until then, understand that when other people have a different experience of what is used, then maybe you are not really entitled to claim as much as you do.

I will concede that avatars do not hit the table in your area.

They have slowed by us as we all trot our 10T shinyness out, instead. (Although I dropped a SIM-29 on the table just this past Thursday night)

Edited December 30, 2012 by Gruesome

[Jonas Albrecht]

I agree.

But YOU were the one making the assertions of what is used and what is not. Now, if you have some sort of keen insight to the entire Malifaux playerbase that is beyond your playing group and these forums, then by all means, share your findings.

Until then, understand that when other people have a different experience of what is used, then maybe you are not really entitled to claim as much as you do.

My assertions are based on listening to the crowd here.

[Gruesome]

My assertions are based on listening to the crowd here.

Gotcha.

Judging by how few seem to get any use, I think most of them do.

I agree with you, OP. I think Avatars are were a bad idea, from conception to execution.

Your conclusion from "the crowds" here.

We disagree. I am gonna leave you to it... Enjoy.

[Jonas Albrecht]

We do not need to discuss this further.

Excellent.

[amor sanguinis]

If I may say, as a new player, avatars are a bit confusing.

When I started playing a couple of months ago, I bought the

Lilith box set thinking "This master looks awesome". Not really

the best way to pick a master, I undersyand, but my next buys where

The Twins and Nekima and ALilith.

That said she has never been fielded because of how she changes liliths play

style. As a new player its just not wize. Not to mention how, in my opinion, the

Lilith grow lists tend to destract from objective grabing.

Now i play with the Vicks and love it. I enjoy there play style and am rather attracted

to there avatar, but i really dont understand how it can be called a mid-late game changer

if the player doesnt from the onset of the game plan on manafesting. Esp sence it has to be

announced.

I love the sculpts (Esp Lilith, Vicks, And Sonia) but it just apperes

to me to just destract rather then help... Idk...

---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------

Edit : Second paragragh refers to ALilith

[Gruesome]

If I may say, as a new player, avatars are a bit confusing.

When I started playing a couple of months ago, I bought the

Lilith box set thinking "This master looks awesome". Not really

the best way to pick a master, I undersyand, but my next buys where...

A number of people think that's the BEST way to start playing... Pick what looks cool to YOU and give it a whirl. (wind)

[Fetid Strumpet]

aLilith is interesting. She has alot of neat things going for her, but she has one gigantic drawback, she is much easier to kill than regular lilith. I think she is really neat ad fun, but I'm not certain I'd ever take her outside of a table covered in multiple forests.

[Forar]

A number of people think that's the BEST way to start playing... Pick what looks cool to YOU and give it a whirl.

Personally I think it's best to look at the mechanics first and see if, at least on paper, they seem to be enjoyable to your playstyle. There's nothing wrong with buying a figure/crew simply to paint it up, of course, but when dealing with limited funds one must make hard choices. Be a shame to look at a box, say "that looks awesome!" and then read the stat cards and follow up with "... this sucks/is not how I like to play games/etc"

I find this goes doubly so for the Avatars, as they are among the most expensive figures in the game and may end up seeing little or no table time in a game, triply so for those with more niche use, or a risk of becoming actively detrimental to completing one's objectives.

I can only imagine that there are people out there who have lost games due to unfortunate auto-manifests, or finding themselves short on stones after spending 2 to get access to it and then perhaps more putting off the manifest itself.

Of note: I'm not advocating Avatars as pure "upgrades". Personally, as I think I mentioned before, I think it'd be interesting to have another round of them, each with a different focus, giving more versatility to the mechanic as people could tailor their Avatar choice to their crew, their opponent's faction, the strategies/schemes, their personal playstyle, etc.

I just think the risk/reward ratio of those 2 stones spent is a bit more out of whack for some Avatars more than others, especially for those niche ones where it becomes something to ponder; "would I not be in a position where I need that 'emergency' button/manifest if I'd spent the extra stones on my crew or had a bigger cache?"

Edited December 31, 2012 by Forar

[Omenbringer]

I think just moving the Manifest clock down in AP cost would help wonders. ARamos and ASomer (to name a few) are good pieces to buff (generally thought to be) poorer Masters. But you invest so much time in getting them out ...

We definately disagree on Som'er (and Avatar Som'er) here.

Normal Som'er is one of the best crew buffers in the game and is amazingly versatile. Avatar Som'er is also very good but you do suffer some significant trade offs when manifesting him.

Attaching him is a great mid to late game option but definately not one that is "must have". Further his manifest requirements don't require a lot of additional work from him at all (just doing his normal thing Som'er can easily achieve 1 or both of his requirements and manifest consistently in turn 4-5 for a 1 action) so is much less of a gamble.

Personally I feel like the mannfest part could be better, instead of two choices there were two of four or five or even six and depending on which two you completed effect how the master manifests

I would say that this would needlessly complicate the whole process. Not saying that something like this couldn't occur down the road if Wyrd introduced more Avatar forms which could introduce something along these lines.

A number of people think that's the BEST way to start playing... Pick what looks cool to YOU and give it a whirl. (wind)

That is the way I usually suggest to do it though also ask about the desired playstyle.

Personally I think it's best to look at the mechanics first and see if, at least on paper, they seem to be enjoyable to your playstyle. There's nothing wrong with buying a figure/crew simply to paint it up, of course, but when dealing with limited funds one must make hard choices. Be a shame to look at a box, say "that looks awesome!" and then read the stat cards and follow up with "... this sucks/is not how I like to play games/etc"

I definately agree with this as well as Gruesomes method, the two together is the best way to go. Luckily Malifaux doesn't struggle to accomplish both of these onjectives very oftten.

I find this goes doubly so for the Avatars, as they are among the most expensive figures in the game and may end up seeing little or no table time in a game, triply so for those with more niche use, or a risk of becoming actively detrimental to completing one's objectives.

I can only imagine that there are people out there who have lost games due to unfortunate auto-manifests, or finding themselves short on stones after spending 2 to get access to it and then perhaps more putting off the manifest itself.

The simple response to that is that if you didn't want to manifest then why attach the Avatar at all (or even work toward achieving the requirements). In the games I have played with Avatars I can only think of one where I wanted to put off the manifest for a turn (and that was because of some amazing low probability flips by my opponent). There really is a good amount of control in manifesting Avatars (for the most part all have 1 easy one and 1 involved one) and by the time it becomes automatic the game is usually well in hand any way.