Pre-Measure

[nilus]

I'd be fine with pre-measuring movement + melee range but that's it. If you could measure everything you would finally see the rise of gunlines in malifaux that everyone hates.

Two things

1) I don't think measuring ranges will make gunlines any more viable then they are now

2) Not everyone hates Gunlines, Guild and Gremlin players already use them often.

[Truthsayer]

Ive got to agree and say pre-measuring would be good. I do sometimes like the moments when you declare an action, and can't quite make it happen due to range, but it doesn't make the game. The style and the fate deck make the game. I remember a large number of occasions where me and my opponent have stood there looking at a gap between models, and tried to guess the distance before committing. This can use up huge amounts of time during games, and I end up letting my opponent pre-measure most of the time just so i can get my activation!!

[bashamer]

can someone define "pre measure" ?

If I charge around a corner do I get to measure where I end up, or also what my reach would be where I end up ?

Can I measure my gun range while I move ?

[Odin1981]

I believe the main reason atm they "aren't effective" is the lack of range finding. With goblins unless you take them a certain way they are probably more apt to shoot themselves than actually hit you.

[scuttlebut]

Dratbags. We were planning on talking about this on our next recording of Malifools but now will have to wait a bit or we might be accused of being too relevant.

[nix]

can someone define "pre measure" ?

If I charge around a corner do I get to measure where I end up, or also what my reach would be where I end up ?

Can I measure my gun range while I move ?

I define pre-measure as being able to measure any distance at any time during the game.

[Odin1981]

can someone define "pre measure" ?

If I charge around a corner do I get to measure where I end up, or also what my reach would be where I end up ?

Can I measure my gun range while I move ?

Before actually announcing or making a action being able to check the range of things to see what you would be able to do.

[nilus]

I define pre-measure as being able to measure any distance at any time during the game.

+1

This is how I define it. Sometimes games try to get tricky with the wording on it and it just leads to making the measuring rules even more complex then not allowing it. I say just saying "Measure and range at any time" makes life easier for everyone.

It even speeds up the game more because you can measure your ranges and figure out things while your opponent is doing is own actions.

[Fetid Strumpet]

While I'm still in favor of allowing pre-measuring, how would that potential change interact with other rules in the game that are currently based on not knowing ranges?

For example, how would it interact with the Dreamer's Shadowy Form.

[Buhallin]

For example, how would it interact with the Dreamer's Shadowy Form.

Same as with any other bit of premeasure, I think - it would become more about the positioning and movement influence and less about guessing the range. The Dreamer would make sure he had a Nightmare within 3", and the opponent would eliminate or move those Nightmares to open it up.

In this particular case, I'm not even sure it would change anything at all. You cannot select illegal targets at all - it's not a "do it and lose it" like out of range is. If you tried to target the Dreamer, you'd measure to see if the Nightmare was in range, and if it was the action would simply be backed up.

[dgraz]

I'm on the fence. I do like the not knowing and having to take a risk. But I also think pre-measure would speed up the game. Me wanting to allow pre-measure may be influenced by the fact that I really stink at ranges.........back in the day ( 10 years ago) it was High Elves and Lizardmen for me - no guess range weapons there.

[Dustcrusher]

I like the idea of leveling the playing field in some respects with it. If you are new to tabletop game, you are perhaps not accustomed to being able to eyeball the difference between 10 inches and 12. (Some of us are "gifted" in being familiar with such lengths. )

Oh, I see what you did there.

or my ability to be irresistibly sexy should determine my Belle's ability to Lure someone (because let's face it, if it did, my opponents wouldn't stand a chance )

I think this thread might be too sexy for me, but I'll chip in (now I have Right Said Fred stuck in my brain- thanks :-P )

I'm also not sure about allowing it. Premeasuring would probably speed things up for most seasoned players but slow things down even more for new players.

At the least, I'd like to try allowing aura/AoE and melee range checks at any time. Perhaps a limit on the number of times one can premeasure. It might be as simple as not allowing premeasuring during actions- either before or after unless it's a mandatory(ish) check like a melee range.

[FoolWithTheFez]

I would like to chime in and say that I would like to see pre-measuring allowed. In fact, I'll go so far as to say it is one of the few changes I am actively hoping will occur.

[decker_cky]

Having been a primary WFB player, and seeing the transition in that game, trying out kings of war rules, and seeing the 40k transition, I really like allowing premeasuring. All guess ranges does is makes it harder for new players to compete with experienced players in something that has nothing to do with the tactics of the game, and makes the game more difficult for occasional players with vision problems (such as Buhallin who mentioned it earlier in this thread). I learned Warhammer playing with a carpenter, so that was a pretty big handicap as a new player, and it was frustrating. Over time I learned my distances and can easily mark 6, 8, 10, 12 and 14 inches with very good accuracy. I still don't like to see a player lose a game on a failed distance estimation.

Yeah, it is just AWESOME how EVERY cannon shot now starts with "I'm putting the marker "8 from the back edge of his base..." :Confused_Puppet1:

Funny....every dwarf or empire player in previous editions already did that +/-0.1".

A big thing premeasuring eliminates is arguments over distances. Rather than worry about a distance after a charge is declared, most often a player will just say "this is just over 9 inches so you can't charge, right?" and the other player agrees before it's an issue (or disagrees and you adjust the model back a fraction of an inch).

[ravenborne]

For it.

Everyone has stated the obvious reasons we need pre-measuring. However one thing I will add is that since Wyrd made terraclips with exact inch measurements on it, I think its kind of silly for them to not allow pre-measuring.

[bashamer]

yeah I'll pass.

Some people would be triangulating their model trying to find the magic spot where they can't get cahrged, or imnimize charging;

Great in casual, in competitive there are gamer personalities that would make me walk away from the table to go get a sandwich to eat while the move one model. And that is a lot of sandwiches a turn.

[Silas Cordell]

I'd say the answer is easily...maybe?

I enjoy not being certain of ranges, and I do consider the ability to judge distances to be a skill, on par with ability to build a functioning crew or ability to determine the best tactic on a given turn.

Coming from a background much heavier in Warmahordes than Warhammer (either), I have enjoyed having access to a limited amount of pre-measuring, but there doesn't seem to be a convenient way to translate that into most other games.

Ultimately, I would say I'm against limitless pre-measuring, but it would by no means ruin the game for me.

[Undisclosed]

I don't have a problem either way, but would prefer pre-measuring. I think it has a positive impact on games where it's been implemented.

[Buhallin]

Some people would be triangulating their model trying to find the magic spot where they can't get cahrged, or imnimize charging;

Have you actually seen this happen, though?

When Privateer first allowed measuring in a warcaster's control area, there were similar dire predictions. But none of them actually came to pass. The game is doing well, and hasn't become dragged down by excessive measurement at all. Have there actually been any concrete complaints about premeasuring resulting in this sort of thing?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure everybody can point to That One Guy who did it, but that's not the same thing as THINKING That One Guy would do it if he were given a chance, or that it would bog down the game in general.

[Gruesome]

Does anyone have examples from games that did NOT have pre-measuring that added it and found that it was worse or slower?

What about examples of games WITH pre-measure that removed it? Faster or slower?

[bashamer]

Have you actually seen this happen, though?

Yep; it was warmahordes and there you already can spend somegood time during your opponents turn. Also changing that in warmachine / hordes would be a massive cuddlebat to a bunch of negative aura effects; especially the medium to longer range ones where you can now stay just outside and still hit things.

I'm ok doing it if we add chess clocks. but as a stand allone rule it does not add anything for me.

It worked great in discrete games like DnD minis

And it is effectively how you can play on Vasal

[Nore]

I play wfb, and I alway's miss guessing range. Its a well developed talent I have, and would hate to see this game copy anything from those other guys.

[Malovane]

Its been many a version since I've played anything games workshop, but from what I recall hearing they compensated for premeasuring in part by adding randomized charge distances. Just some food for thought. The change to premeasuring came along with other changes to seemingly compensate for the new gameplay dynamic.

[Buhallin]

Its been many a version since I've played anything games workshop, but from what I recall hearing they compensated for premeasuring in part by adding randomized charge distances. Just some food for thought. The change to premeasuring came along with other changes to seemingly compensate for the new gameplay dynamic.

They did, but I'm not sure it was necessary. Privateer made no such change when they began allowing (or clarified that it was always allowed, depending on your point of view) premeasuring within your control area.

I think the reason they added it in with 40K/WHFB has to do with other aspects of the system - specifically, generally low movement speeds and the advantage to being the one who gets the charge off. While I don't think a game would bog down due to people measuring things all the time, I can easily see two forces squaring off against each other, with both intentionally staying out of charge range and refusing to move closer and be the one who eats the charge. The random charge range would fix that, especially since some units can potentially triple or even quadruple their charge range with lucky dice.

IMHO, that's a problem that's specific to those systems rather than something that's generally a problem with premeasuring. I haven't seen that issue develop in Warmachine, and the fact that a Focus is actually stronger than a Charge should keep it from ever being an issue in Malifaux.

[decker_cky]

Its been many a version since I've played anything games workshop, but from what I recall hearing they compensated for premeasuring in part by adding randomized charge distances. Just some food for thought. The change to premeasuring came along with other changes to seemingly compensate for the new gameplay dynamic.

Warhammer and 40k added random charges, but Mantic's Kings of War is an example of a game with fixed movement rates that uses pre-measuring and works very well.