Constructive Malifaux Feedback

[nerdelemental]

Well, because that appeals to players that do not like Red Joker functionality. It would irritate me to do that. There's a lot of thoughts to consider here, and a lot of diversity of thought, too....

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 PM ----------

playing against Res quite a lot locally, I can say that HtW screws me up all the time. But a Res player cannot get into the head of his opponent and see that he's gnashing his teeth all the time, looking at a mitt full of Severe damage cards that cannot get used at all....

[Math Mathonwy]

How about simply "when flipped on a negative DAMAGE flip, the red joker counts as Severe damage It does not trump other cards flipped."

Just make Damage flips a special case for the joker rule.

I would be happy with RJ not providing the extra damage on top of severe when flipped on a negative damage flip. It would still be plenty powerful, but the swing would be far less pronounced.

[fishtank]

Here's another idea then: if RJ is flipped as part of a single flip it counts as a Severe damage card. The flip may be cheated.

[96p]

playing against Res quite a lot locally, I can say that HtW screws me up all the time. But a Res player cannot get into the head of his opponent and see that he's gnashing his teeth all the time, looking at a mitt full of Severe damage cards that cannot get used at all....

oh how I hate it when theres a big dumb Flesh Construct in the way and you are 1 dg short of killing the damn thing only and ONLY because of htw -.-

[maverickman5]

How about simply "when flipped on a negative DAMAGE flip, the red joker counts as Severe damage It does not trump other cards flipped."

Just make Damage flips a special case for the joker rule.

So would the Black Joker cause Weak damage on a positive flip as an equal reciprocal of your proposal?

[fishtank]

Hadn't thought about it, but it wouldn't bother me.

In fact it would possibly be a good idea.

[Buhallin]

And, typically against Res, usually, no matter how good my attack is I'm still flipping at Negative which means the damage is usually lower than I want it to be and I cannot fix it at all.

When I run demos, the crews I use are Rasputina and Seamus. And I'm actually considering changing them.

Why? Because Seamus and his girls screw with Rasputina's damage output like you wouldn't believe. With H2W all over the board, it's very hard for Raspy to get any blasts - much less good blasts - to go off when she can basically never cheat damage.

[dgraz]

As someone that plays against Resers you notice that 14 games in 15, you end up with a couple of 11+ or maybe a Red Joker in your hand you just can't use to cheat Damage Flips, because it's nigh on impossible to get a straight flip to cheat them in on.

This. Certainly this.

Just last nite again, I was sitting on the RJ and had to use a Soulstone on the attack with Perdita just to be able to use it on a Rotten Belle.

[Gruesome]

As someone that plays against Resers you notice that 14 games in 15, you end up with a couple of 11+ or maybe a Red Joker in your hand

I must be the only person that thinks that sentence sounds funny.

[rancor709]

Oh we see it, we just want our cake too.

H2w mitagates more than we'll ever let on. It is the fact that you can fish against the stronger models with h2w2 that the effect is magnified. Its very cinematic and it can be fun, it can also be disheartening and frustrating. But such is the nature of a game when you are seeking consistency. And consistency is something my favorite faction doesn't do well. Which is why the RJ is more magnified by those who enjoy ressers.

I think its that h2w prevents damage to a point, but again red joker is a model wiper in some games, in others you'll never see it when you want and those pieces cause all kind of misery.

I have come to embrace the uncertainty of the jokers but from a purely competitive level, I'd rather the h2w2 function differently more so than I would really like radical joker change. If it doesn't change I'm still fine with it, but don't look at me funny when I cheat so that you only are at a single negative.

[Rathnard]

I very much have the same opinion as Ratty - the inability to cheat vs HtW generally outweighs the higher chance of getting Red Jokered. In fact the latter is the sort of thing you can build counter-strategies against - stuff like avoiding too many models making attacks on your HtW models, or (as often stated) cheating down to make it a single negative.

I don't like the idea of changing HtW simply because I like the simplicity of the rule as it is. Adding conditions and exceptions only makes the game less intuitive and more complicated. At worst, I'd be okay (not happy though) with dropping the extra flip on red joker damage.

One other thing I'd like to point out. In the first year of Malifaux Wyrd did alot of o the spot erratas. It fixed alot of issues (especially as the game was so young) but it also created alot of confusion among new and older players. You needed to be constantly updating yourself on what the latest rulings were, and in fact there were some people who were turned off the game by this.

Periodic erratas, as Wyrd is currently doing, may not fix perceived issues as soon as some people might like,

In any case, if there's a load of erratas like what Calmdown is suggesting, it should either be when V2 is done (which is a much, much larger job requiring at least a year of solid work) or it should be restricted to a few key models that are the most problematic. Yes it may suck that models like the Ice Golem, Bishop* and Malifaux Child are not seen that often, but the game and the community is not going to go down the toilet if they're left alone for a while.

So it's far better to concentrate on the worst offenders for now, rather than overwhelm the community with minor tweaks and improvements to more than half the models in the game.

*Note: Actually Bishop is alot better than people give him credit for...stay tuned for the next Aethervox episode.

[DeleteAccount]

Since we seem to never want to leave the joker topic, I'll just add that more than changing Hard to Wound, I like the suggestion of red joker on negative being severe with nothing else and black on positive to be uncheatable weak damage.

Also, to add to nerdelemental's observations, yes, it is an incredibly subjective thing. Some people love it for the WTF factor and others hate it for the same reason (I'm in the don't like it camp, but that's because I hate randomness spikes in my games). The other thing I was just going to suggest is the option to legally have both players if they agree to it to not use jokers and add the same to gaining grounds as a "non joker " tourny format. Basically, so people that hate the things don't have to houserule themselves out of using them.

[dgraz]

Excellent post Rathnard.

I think what's worse for the Rezzers isn't the Red Joker...its Crit Strike. (not that I want crit strike to be changed) It takes big odds for the right model to be in position and get the extra severe flip to take seamus down. But two 4ss death marshals can do it in one turn if Seamus is low on cards or soulstones.

[Math Mathonwy]

Excellent post Rathnard.

I think what's worse for the Rezzers isn't the Red Joker...its Crit Strike. (not that I want crit strike to be changed) It takes big odds for the right model to be in position and get the extra severe flip to take seamus down. But two 4ss death marshals can do it in one turn if Seamus is low on cards or soulstones.

At least for me this (and incidentally most of the most celebrated posts in the last two pages) misses the point entirely. I don't think that changing Red Joker would somehow boost Ressers mightily. That isn't what I'm looking for with the change. I'm looking for an end to anticlimactic random super swings that make for boring games when they happen at inopportune moments.

People are talking about which is best when that's totally not what most of the people opposed to Red Joker damage swings are interested in. Of course H2W is a positive attribute. Sheesh, this really shouldn't be a great revelation to anyone. It does open the door to cheesing for the Red Joker (especially H2W2) since it doesn't really cost you anything which is silly and a weakness but even then it is definitely a positive attribute. Usually people argue that Armor and high Def don't have such a downside, and they are naturally correct.

[Keltheos]

For every negative triple flip I've had to make in search of that ever-elusive Red Joker uberswing that came up with 12/13/2 I would beg to differ.

Another simple fact about gaming is that some players are simply 'luckier' than others. The odds fall in their favor more than in other players' favors. It happens. There isn't an 'infinite' number of times you, or I will play a game of Malifaux. So within the limited set of flips a person can be 'lucky'.

And as Ratty points out, one of the strengths of H2W isn't just the additional chance of a low card coming up, but the removal of your option to Cheat Fate. Sure, you may get that elusive Red Joker out, but when it doesn't you're left staring at possible high cards in your hand you can't use.

So, there's more to consider when it comes to H2W than just how it interacts with the Fate Deck. The Hand is also affected. The Jokers should be both ends of the Fate spectrum. Black Joker shuts you down. Red Joker makes your day. I very much do not agree with the camp that believes the Red Joker should be a wild 14 and that's it. Want to talk about anticlimactic?

Also, don't forget that a game of Malifaux can swing back to your advantage just as quickly as the devastating blow a player just handed you with the evil Red Joker wrecked it for you.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Keltheos

[dgraz]

At least for me this (and incidentally most of the most celebrated posts in the last two pages) misses the point entirely.

I'm not missing your point. You have made your point quite clear over the last bazillion pages and in multiple posts before this thread. I am making an entirely different point. No matter how much you would like it to be so, not everything is about the RJ.

Nerdelemental came on and asked what people think. I have made my position on the RJ clear and don't feel the need to continue beating the dead horse 'so to speak'.............so I'm answering him. I get it, I really do....I respect your opinion (even though I disagree)....I'm just trying to get away from repeating the same thing over and over.

[nerdelemental]

At least for me this (and incidentally most of the most celebrated posts in the last two pages) misses the point entirely. I don't think that changing Red Joker would somehow boost Ressers mightily. That isn't what I'm looking for with the change. I'm looking for an end to anticlimactic random super swings that make for boring games when they happen at inopportune moments.

Which is in every way the exact polar opposite of my view.

They are spectacularly climactic.

If you were in control every step of the way and dropped exactly the cards I could expect and HtW and no Joker swings showed up: that would equal boring. I could see everything coming.

[ravenborne]

The only joker argument I can really see making is the one OldManMyke said in his podcast. To paraphrase, he said it seems a bit wrong that the Red Joker on a negative flip produces the exact same result as the red joker on a positive flip. Whether or not the designers want to add one extra rule to remember is up to them, but the point is solid.

Honestly I don't think it would be hard to remember a clean positive/negative joker flip rule. The hard stuff to remember is all the little minutia rules about cover and terrain and falling and morale, in my opinion.

[Lungboy]

Which is in every way the exact polar opposite of my view.

They are spectacularly climactic.

If you were in control every step of the way and dropped exactly the cards I could expect and HtW and no Joker swings showed up: that would equal boring. I could see everything coming.

This is how i view the game too. The jokers are fine for me, they fit the theme and fluff of the game perfectly. H2W has enough positives to it to more than make up for the tiny extra chance of flipping the red joker.

[Hatchethead]

RJ on negative damage flip should be auto severe *with no additional damage flip*. That's the only change I support.

[Keltheos]

The only joker argument I can really see making is the one OldManMyke said in his podcast. To paraphrase, he said it seems a bit wrong that the Red Joker on a negative flip produces the exact same result as the red joker on a positive flip. Whether or not the designers want to add one extra rule to remember is up to them, but the point is solid.

Honestly I don't think it would be hard to remember a clean positive/negative joker flip rule. The hard stuff to remember is all the little minutia rules about cover and terrain and falling and morale, in my opinion.

You mean like how the Black Joker on a negative flip is the same as the Black Joker on a positive flip? This designer feels that the Jokers should be the bookends of the spectrum.

[Hatchethead]

Then do away with the additional damage flip altogether. RJ counts as a 14/severe of any suit with the ability to supersede a negative flip. Or, if additional damage is somehow a must, make it severe + weak, no flip required. Just my opinion.

[CRC]

I feel the best part of gaming comes afterward, when I get to sit around with friends sharing epic stories.

The current RJ mechanics increase the incidence of epic stories.

[Setoth]

So I'm not sure if this would fit here or elsewhere, but what about introducing different rules for tournament play vs casual play? I don't mean a complete change in mechanics so much as alterations for competitive play based on statistics, overplayed lists and other things people don't like in tournaments. Like the Jokers for example. I personally like the way Jokers play out, but I understand how the randomness might irritate tournament players. So maybe a tournament can change the mechanics of the Red Joker and make it only do severe damage on a Hard to Wound 2, or whatever balance issue there is. It's akin to patching a multiplayer PC strategy game (used to play C&C 3 online). You could do something like releasing a new rules packet a few weeks before every tournament based on how things played out in previous tournaments and give the pros a chance to adjust their lists accordingly.

Me personally, I left Warhammer 40,000 because the tournament scene pretty much scared away most casuals. I game at Austin and our local Bell of Lost Souls has a history of breaking codexes as soon as possible and tabling people. I might actually get back into it this new edition because of the randomness. It might make it possible to take someone on around here without losing all my units on the second turn.

Just a thought I guess.

[ravenborne]

You mean like how the Black Joker on a negative flip is the same as the Black Joker on a positive flip? This designer feels that the Jokers should be the bookends of the spectrum.

Absolutely, anything you do with the Jokers needs to be reflected on both ends of the spectrum.

---------- Post added at 04:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

Just want to throw this in there, I don't know how much effigy play everyone has seen, but these little buggers can really mess around with joker flips. Mainly I am thinking of the hodgpodge effigy. I already see some potential abuse with jokers I am going to be testing out soon.

In short, in some crews jokers might not always be just an "extreme performance" mechanic.