Wyrd Plastics

[ThePandaDirector]

So with news that Puppets Wars is going plastic and that Lazarus will be the first plastic for Malifaux (plus who knows how much out of book 4), questions naturally arise.

Now I've seen glimpses of the Puppet plastics and can attest to them looking awesome. While metal Lady Justice looks like her lips have had botox, plastic Justice looks great. They now look more like 3D copies of the art.

Naturally with Malifaux there's the issue that every other company that does plastic tends to either be corporate asses and charge more and/or tailor their game to allow for mass purchasing.

However, one thought has occured to me.

The starter boxes aren't designed to be... well starter boxes, for the purpose of instant gaming, but rather value for money sets that one is expected to flesh out before gaming. With plastics, value for money is far easier to achieve and as such actual playable out the box crews can be made. But that's only if Wyrd go plastic heavy, and there's nothing to suggest that so far.

But does plastic also suggest larger models. Eric addressed this on Gamers Lounge, saying that they want to do impressive models with lots of detail. My view on this is the possibility of various things from small copies of Ramos' Leviathon, Steamboats, Hanging Tree set, Cherufe's physical form (rules limited to story encounters), as well as better variety of models taking in large numbers (Gremlins).

The two major new things I really want to see out of this are things I can actually interact with (so not a pointless Titan, but the Leviathon) that adds an extra layer to the battefield (Leviathon - models fighting on it, destorying terrain, capturing it) and the advance of accessories and model options (different heads, poseable limbs, etc) to help make everyone's crews even more personal and unique.

But what do you think? What are the strengths of plastic and what possibilities do they bring? How far do you want Wyrd to take them and what could the future bring?

Discuss!

[Dustcrusher]

I'd eventually love to see kits of any model that can have 3 or more in a crew- Gremlins, Ice Gamin, Death Marshals, Stalkers, Punk Zombies, a boxed set of Mindless Zombies (of course), and maybe recast the alt Spiders with pegs for easy swarm/de-swarming.

[Huang Da Wei]

small quantities of plastic will be fine, maybe the avatars for example, gremlins would be good but I am worried there will be huge amounts of cheap models and if thats the case are we expected to field more? willl we be playing games of 75-100ss ?

[Cadilon]

small quantities of plastic will be fine, maybe the avatars for example, gremlins would be good but I am worried there will be huge amounts of cheap models and if thats the case are we expected to field more? willl we be playing games of 75-100ss ?

This is the second time I've heard this alluded to. I am not following the logic that plastic models could lead to larger games. If they are indeed cheaper to produce, and if that savings is passed on to the customer, I can see it maybe leading me to buy (even) more models. But I don't see it actually changing the rules of the game.

[ThePandaDirector]

As far as plastics alluding to larger games, I think if it suggests anything of the sort it is that Wyrd will release a future seperate game that may tailor to larger collections. That doesn't even mean that it will be Malifaux, but would just help to capitalise on the increased production output.

But I expect we'll see RPGs and such long before that becomes an option.

[dunce002917]

I'm ok with plastic if it lowers the price (heck even by $0.50) and the details come out great.

Why stop there, I'd like to get some plastic base inserts and accessories... perhaps, they can do an accessory grab bag and make it cheaper to encourage players to have scenic bases. I bought the Wyrd bases for my starter crews but for my regular minions, I ended up using some scenic rocks and greenstuff.

[F3ARMonger]

Maybe I am just old school but, I prefer my models to be metal. I also do a much better job at painting metal.

What I hope does not happen is when GW went from metal to "resin." They raised their prices to offset their "new" production costs. Although, we all know it isn't true there were no new production costs past new molds. Which is the cost of doing business. I really hope Wyrd doesn't go that route.

[Fenrir]

Plastic can also lead to buildings, accessories and different terrain pieces as well as models. Bigger units is by the by, but squads (20-25 models total) fighting it out in Malifaux city? I'd snap that up.

Not every company that produces plastics starts getting seriously corporate and money obsessed. Some of the historical boxes are great value for money.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Fenrir

[Pierowmaniac]

After listening to the interview with Eric on the Gamers Lounge podcast, I'm fairly confident Wyrd are not going to do a GW on us.

Anyway now they are going down the plastic route Im really looking forward to what they are going to give us in the future.

Maybe someday we might even get a Dirgible

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

Not every company that produces plastics starts getting seriously corporate and money obsessed. Some of the historical boxes are great value for money.

Yep you've just got to look at perry miniatures and warlord games to see how they are giving value for money.

Usually around 36 infantry models for £18!

[dunce002917]

Maybe I am just old school but, I prefer my models to be metal. I also do a much better job at painting metal.

What I hope does not happen is when GW went from metal to "resin." They raised their prices to offset their "new" production costs. Although, we all know it isn't true there were no new production costs past new molds. Which is the cost of doing business. I really hope Wyrd doesn't go that route.

Well luckily for Wyrd and Malifaux players, Wyrd is not (yet) as big as GW. GW could raise prices because the community would still buy the stuff. They already hooked the players in through years of releases. I think Wyrd will be careful when it comes to releases and changes of directions. Unless raw costs are up, I doubt the plastic models would end up being higher than the pewter models. So far PP has solve the pricing issue (not much change in price) but I would still hope for cheaper prices so that I can get more crews.. LOL

[Fenrir]

Add gripping beast to that list - the plastic boxes they do are superb. Saga is a squads based skirmish game, something similar set in malifaux would be a winner. Might have to homebrew that.

[Dustcrusher]

Add gripping beast to that list - the plastic boxes they do are superb. Saga is a squads based skirmish game, something similar set in malifaux would be a winner. Might have to homebrew that.

If you write a homebrew of Saga in the Malifaux setting (please share if you do), I suggest using poker dice on the Battleboard for extra flavor.

Side note: I would buy a set of poker dice with the normal suits replaced with Malifaux suits. Just sayin'.

Back on-topic, Wyrd has been emphatic about not screwing around with the size of the game, so I am not too concerned about that. At most, they'll do a separate rulebook for big battles (I still think some

And to add to good plastics companies, Mantic (slightly less detailed than GW but a fraction of the cost), Wargames Factory (excellent for the cost) and Defiance Games (inexpensive and quite nice to boot).

[A_Hamster]

Plastic figures, when done right and priced fairly (i.e. Not the Games Workshop pricing), are overall a benefit for the miniatures gamer. Usually they have more variety out of the box, and easier to convert. For games that require 200+ figures in 25mm or larger, they are lighter (a definite plus if carrying a full corps or more of Napoleonics!) And for bulk troops (like Japanese ashigaru of the sengoku jidai period) it is a damn sight cheaper than metal!

Wyrd moving to plastics is an opportunity: they should be able to offer us more figure variety and scenic bits for customizing without crippling themselves economically. Also, without knowing their other plans, perhaps they will offer a rules set that requires 200+ figures for a game and so moving towards plastic kits would make sense for army building.

[kasin666]

i wouldnt mind a "unit" box of 10-15 mindless zombies that can be put together in different ways

[Requirement]

When I read "Plastic" I instantly thought, "Mindless zombies for days!" I hope this is the first (and in my opinion, only) unit they release.

[Saint Norton]

I would love to see Wyrd start producing themed terrain to go with their line of models. Old west style buildings tend to be hard to find in the correct scale and even when you do, pricey...

[dgraz]

As Eric stated in that podcast, one of the things they didn't like was the cost of P-Wars. So switching to plastic was going to help that. Branching off from that, it only makes sense that if they're doing the work to get into plastic already, why not put that cost effectiveness into Malifaux also?

I'm old-school and love metal. I'm not a big converter, so that part means nothing to me. That said, I'm excited about plastic coming. I've said elsewhere that it'll help keep costs down. To clarify: I don't expect reduced prices, I think what will happen will be that Wyrd can keep pricing the same for a longer period instead of either increasing prices every time the price of metal increases or having to eat the cost and decreasing their profits.

I want them to be profitable. They do a lot of work making their games better and they MUST be putting a substantial cut of the profits right back into their product. Their design costs alone must be staggering....and they don't do anything half-way - look at T-Clips, they're amazing. They're constantly coming up with innovative ideas that surprise us and I want that to continue for a long time.

I'm a true lover of the skirmish-style game. I gave up WH Fantasy (big armies being only one reason with that....I more-like gave up on GW) and I walked away from PP when they forced big units down my throat. That said, with as surprising as Wyrd has been, if they were planning a future move into creating a larger battle game, I'd probably give it a go.

[Rameses]

Yes please!

Give me plastic models, period.

The detail that is achievable with plastic models (not to mention the possibilities for more/easier conversions) far out matches that which is achieved with white metal. I really look forward to a whole line of Malifaux plastics. I'd seriously replace every model I have if Wyrd went this route.

And really it's a pretty big leap to assume that just because there is talk of plastic models that the game is headed to large scale encounters. Even Nathan has debunked that in another thread.

This is just my 2Cp.

I am, Rameses!

[pixelante]

I don't think people are aware of the costs involved in making plastic models. The infrastructure to create plastic models is quite different from pewter casting and Wyrd is going to want to make that money back in a reasonable time. It is more expensive to create a plastic mold than a metal mold and then you need a different machine to cast the plastic mold.

Puppetwars is a reasonable example. Everyone who plays it is going to buy all the models. Lady J and other Malifaux uniques on the otherhand are not. Not even Games Workshop casts its uniques in plastic. There is no plastic Magnus Calgar set, instead they have a generic Space Marine commander. Even plastic Mindless Zombies is not a reasonable proposition because only the customers who play Ressurectionists will really want them, them and anyone who wants to run a zombie apocalypse scenario probably.

Hate to poo poo a good idea, but its just good business.

[the imp]

There is a caster using a hybrid thermoset plastic/resin compound in a standard spincaster. I think he's in New Jersey. If Wyrd were to go that route, you could see plastics at a similar price point as the existing models. One reason they're probably looking at plastic options is that the price of tin has exploded in the last year or so. It was one of GW's motivating factors for introducing FineCast.

[D1agoro]

My only experience with plastic/resin models is with PP for their Warma/Hoards range and with them as a base line i could only say stick to white metal. White metal just seems to allow a greater level of detail in a miniature. Plastics are all good and well when your min army size is 100+ mini's but Malifaux is a skirmish game. I would prefer to field 8 - 10 highly detailed white metal mini's over the same number of not so detailed plastic miniatures.

[Athan Allgood]

When first listening to the Podcast I have to admit, my immediate reaction was: "Plastic?! Urrrghhh..."

But, in having seen the dedication to quality models that Wyrd has committed to thus far, I am willing to keep an open mind until I see the results. I don't have much experience in plastic figs outside of some 40K stuff, so I will give Wyrd the benefit of the doubt in this.

Its quality that matters to me. If the price remains static and fig quality remains the same, I'm good. If the quality remains the same and prices go down, hey, even better.

If price goes up or quality goes down... well... that gets trickier...

[Omenbringer]

I would love to see Wyrd start producing themed terrain to go with their line of models. Old west style buildings tend to be hard to find in the correct scale and even when you do, pricey...

There is always Sarissa Precision, they produce Western Themed terrain in almost the correct scale and are very resonably priced.

As Eric stated in that podcast, one of the things they didn't like was the cost of P-Wars. So switching to plastic was going to help that. Branching off from that, it only makes sense that if they're doing the work to get into plastic already, why not put that cost effectiveness into Malifaux also?

I'm old-school and love metal. I'm not a big converter, so that part means nothing to me. That said, I'm excited about plastic coming. I've said elsewhere that it'll help keep costs down. To clarify: I don't expect reduced prices, I think what will happen will be that Wyrd can keep pricing the same for a longer period instead of either increasing prices every time the price of metal increases or having to eat the cost and decreasing their profits.

I definately prefer metal to plastic, I just really like the feel. With that said Wyrd has historically produced very fine minatures (their resin models were especially well done) and I would expect the same with the plastics. As for conversions I have never really had any problems with metal or plastic (except that I have to use a saw instead of a hobby knife for cutting the metals).

Maintaining the price point is important, but quality is also. If the plastics end up looking like some of the other companies first attempts then the price wont matter for me (I did beg Privateer Press for an extreme or collectors version of the Bastions cast in metal and never once cared about how much it would cost me).

I'm a true lover of the skirmish-style game. I gave up WH Fantasy (big armies being only one reason with that....I more-like gave up on GW) and I walked away from PP when they forced big units down my throat. That said, with as surprising as Wyrd has been, if they were planning a future move into creating a larger battle game, I'd probably give it a go.

The move from skirmish level game to full on army scale for Warmachine is what really caused me to turn away from it. I still play occasionally mainly because I have so much money tied up with it and I love the look of the Protectorate but I definately prefer the smaller encounter games like Malifaux, Necromunda, Mordhiem and Mercs.

As far as the game evolving into something larger, I think it would be difficult without some major rebalancing. The game really does breakdown quickly as the encounter size goes up.

One reason they're probably looking at plastic options is that the price of tin has exploded in the last year or so. It was one of GW's motivating factors for introducing FineCast.

The increasing cost of tin is an often cited cause for a move to plastic. I think it becomes more noticeable as a game becomes more popular and seems to be an inevitability.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Omenbringer

[LordZombie]

I already posted what I had to say about plastics in the other thread. That being said, I would say I am all for plastics as long as wyrd can stick to new models. I really don't want to see new alt Seamus in plastic, or the new plastic punk zombie box set. As for box set of 3 models with alt pieces would also be nice, but as long as it is for the lower priced models, like a new type of gremlin or maybe zombie cats. That would be my only complaint.

[Iron Heel]

Wyrd moving to plastics is an opportunity: they should be able to offer us more figure variety and scenic bits for customizing without crippling themselves economically. Also, without knowing their other plans, perhaps they will offer a rules set that requires 200+ figures for a game and so moving towards plastic kits would make sense for army building.

I like plastics. Assembly and conversion are so much more fun with plastics.

I also like Malifaux being a true skirmish game with a very low model count. This shift to plastics ushering in larger battles for WM/H is what pushed me out of that system and into Malifaux...I have no time or interest in painting up tons of soldier models in 28mm. If I am going for big battles, I'd rather do 15mm or smaller.