Request for an Errata to the Bury mechanic

[Calmdown]

Hi!

Pretty much everyone knows about this issue, so I won't go into detail about it.

I'd like to ask in this semi-official format that bury is reworked so as not to be as abusable as it is now.

I/We all know that you guys are horribly busy and have *lots* of rules that need your attention, but this mechanic in particular is being abused by a lot of different models (and causes a lot of rules queries and negative play experience) and is almost certainly not working as intended; it's probably the most clear cut problem rule out there right now, hence the request for a change to this specifically.

My apologies if this is a little too forthright but it seems like a whole pile of abusive game mechanics could be fixed in one fell swoop!

Yours hopefully

Friendly Neighbourhood Calmdown

[Twisted Metal]

"googolplex"

Unless you're adding the weight of Google headquarters to this post...

A googolplex is a 1 with 100 "0" after it.

Anyway it is good news that the bury mechanic is being looked at. Unfortunately im one of the few in my group that enjoyed capitalizing on the ability, especially with levi.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Twisted Metal

[mythicFOX]

Could I add the idea that you cannot be buried and unburied in the same turn to the conversation. Fixing the effect expiry is all very well but some of the worst abuse comes from the repeated bury/unbury in the same turn.

And if bury is 'fixed' can you also review Soul Stone Miner's cost. Without his tricks 6ss is a little pricy for a model with that many balancing rules.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Actually Twisted Metal a 1 followed by 100 zeros is a google, a googleplex is a 1 followed by a google of zeros.

[nilus]

Actually Twisted Metal a 1 followed by 100 zeros is a google, a googleplex is a 1 followed by a google of zeros.

As Calmdown pointed out you mean a Googolplex. Googleplex is the name of Google HQ(also the mall in Phineas and Ferb).

Regardless my point is its a big fricking number. Carl Sagan taught me about it

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 AM ----------

Could I add the idea that you cannot be buried and unburied in the same turn to the conversation. Fixing the effect expiry is all very well but some of the worst abuse comes from the repeated bury/unbury in the same turn.

I can't believe I am saying this but that would cuddle the dreamer/LCB and make them unplayable.

The Dreamer move then bury, LCB pop out, kill, then bury, Dreamer come back I always felt was the intended interactions. I think its the 20+" yoyo back to the deployment zone that is the broke part.

I think the buy changes we are discussing here are not gonna do much for the Dreamer, for it to be fixed I think something has to be changed on the daydreams

[letsallchant]

it would help some of the dirtier tricks in the dreamers game, like burying your whole crew with defensive stance/creepy fog/psychopathic episode active... then dropping them all on your opponent next turn with full activations and all those abilities active.

i dont like such underhanded tactics with an already strong master, so this wouldnt bother me at all. but it should go both ways, negative effects should expire while buried as well.

so overall it would probably be a buff to the dreamer as far as im concerned but it would make him alot nicer to face in a competitive environment at the same time

[magicpockets]

I agree on caution over bury/unbury limits per turn - that would hit Bette quite hard. In fact, Bette's way of doing it (i.e. you can't use either of bury/unbury twice in one activation) is possibly the right answer? So you can unbury, do stuff, bury - but not unbury again. Again , just an idea obviously

[Kadeton]

Could I add the idea that you cannot be buried and unburied in the same turn to the conversation. Fixing the effect expiry is all very well but some of the worst abuse comes from the repeated bury/unbury in the same turn.

On the other hand that would flat-out break certain abilities, like Colette's Disappearing Act (which always buries and unburies in the same turn by design). I personally feel that effects persisting past their intended end point is a much bigger problem.

[mythicFOX]

I agree on caution over bury/unbury limits per turn - that would hit Bette quite hard. In fact, Bette's way of doing it (i.e. you can't use either of bury/unbury twice in one activation) is possibly the right answer? So you can unbury, do stuff, bury - but not unbury again. Again , just an idea obviously

Can't unburry/burry twice in the same turn sounds good to me.

So you could unburry Chompy, attack and burry him again but then he's out for the turn and can't come back in. That would flat out stop the catapult play dumping Chompy in your DZ turn one and would let Colette and Bette's abilities work as intended.

Might well 'fix' Chompy? Just my 2p.

[Kael Hate]

After being harrassed for bringing this up earlier, I have now joined the side of those who use bury tech. I feel I am going to be quite upset when my soulstone miners return to suck. Such is life I guess.

Will the borkness that is LCB be fixed so that he doesn't get to activate immediately on pop-out? Will Lazarus be forever stuck in the earth when he assimilates a Soulstone miners Bury? Will the Death marshal's Pine Box become even less used?

[nerdelemental]

as a suggestion: since Keltheos admitted that we are [have been] looking at this specific thing, you should probably shift gears to speaking your mind from "I wish it would change" to "I'd think this specific change would make it balanced".

We clearly listen and hear you and want to get it right the first time. Well, the second time, but you get the idea.

Other than these last several posts, are there more thoughts on ideas needing consideration?

[ravenborne]

The problems with bury are that it 1) continues effects past the end of turn...that's complicated and not in alignment with the basic rule that most effects end at end of turn.

2) It essentially allows an out of play model to come back later and continue to affect the play environment.

Something along the lines of: Bury ends all effects on the model, and ends the model's activation.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Burying a model and thus ending it's activations for the remaining turn both strengthens the mechanic for some, who use Bury offensively, and weakens it for others, who use it defensively.

In addition to ending effects on a model, on the surface I *think* I like this idea. I'd definitely want it play tested the hell out of, as much as I loath the current incarnation of The Dreamer I don't want him to be unplayable, although given how some masters are designed I wouldn't mind in some ways, but nevertheless I'd worry it might be possibly too much of a shift for him... maybe. If Bury were changed to reflect this I would suggest a wording change or clarification to make certain that if the dreamer pre-buried his crew, that it counted as happening before the game officially begins, and thus if they are unburied during that turn they could still activate.

[Ratty]

The problems with bury are that it 1) continues effects past the end of turn...that's complicated and not in alignment with the basic rule that most effects end at end of turn.

2) It essentially allows an out of play model to come back later and continue to affect the play environment.

Something along the lines of: Bury ends all effects on the model, and ends the model's activation.

Even if this would clear effects like the nurses, model gains reactivate, this model gets sacrificed at the end of turn.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Ratty

[ravenborne]

It seems to me this is more in line with the original intent.

[mythicFOX]

Ending effects abnormally like that may cause as many problems as it solves. You'd be able to remove things like slow and paralyze from a model with it.

The abuses come from effects not ending when they should. Having bury let effects end at EOT would solve this. Not allowing you to Burry or unburry twice in a single turn would shut down most of the other abuses models can use without making these models unplayable.

[Twisted Metal]

I think it would still be an improvement and a step in the right direction. The bury might remove the sacrifice effect but if Bette wanted to make use of that effect again (or stimulant)she would have to come back into play right near the nurse. Most players are not going to want to have Bette constantly returning to the nurses location for the boost. Think of bury as a supped up shrug off.

[Kadeton]

I would prefer simply to see effects on buried models resolve just like effects on models in play. So if Bete was juiced with Painkillers by a Nurse, reactivated, then buried herself, she would then be sacrificed.

Essentially, I'd like to see bury simply move a model to another location (off the table) and prevent it from activating. Does it need to be any more complicated than that?

[ravenborne]

What I was thinking with have effects end is that bury could still be used to some clever effect in the spirit of cool Malifaux combos.

Also, I was considering that bury could become a bit too nasty offensively if a model was paralyzed for example and then buried before it activated. It essentially would miss 2 turns.

But if Wyrd is after simplicity, I suppose it is simplest to just have no additional rules around bury and effects, and a buried model worked exactly like any other model. Effects end as normal.

[CRC]

Arise!

I've been looking at effects that are interesting to consider:

• Poison
• Burning
• DM's Making Ends Meet
• Love Love
• Massive Dose / Painkillers
• Arcane Reservoir
• Scavenger/Graverobber
• Unique/Rare
• Desolation Engine's Lost Focus

There's some funky stuff to deal with.

I would tend to suggest that Buried models be considered "in play" enough for things like Lost Love and Arcane Reservoir to still function.

I would also say that Unique/Rare should also be in, lest the Dreamer summon more than 3 Daydreams as a hedge against losing them mid-game.

However, the moment we open this can of worms, suddenly models can die while buried. This can lead to summons, counters, slow-to-die, all kinds of stuff.

I see three options:

1. Models die while buried, new rules deal with results
2. Models can be killed while buried, but hit the table before they 'die'
3. Like above, but make sure we're past things like Slow to Die

I think I prefer the third. The first is complex, the second leads to weird unbury-interrupt-slow to die-healing-not dead-what about the stuff after I died but before now?

So, models can die, once they die, they can long longer Graverob/Make Ends Meet/..., but they don't actually get removed from the game. Once they unbury, they immediately go to the drop counters / A&D,DE summons / etc, then get removed.

[Oshova]

Making Buried models count as "In play" would definitely be an improvement. They would go through the end of turn phase, would count toward Unique/Rare, and would count as models for Eye for and Eye, and Contain Power (or any other scheme/strategy that requires a model to be in/out of play).

Also, I feel that using Bete's rules on only unburying once a turn could be a good addition to the general Bury rule. I love the extreme Hit and Run mechanic of Dreamer/LCB, but it is definitely one of the strongest, and least defendable mechanics in the game.

[Ciroth]

Just taking a quick stab at things how about:

"While buried, a model is out of play, but still in the game and effects on the model, including Wd it has suffered or on going Spells, resolve as normal. While buried, a model which is killed or sacrificed is removed from the game along with any counters it carries or would generate. A buried model returns to play when an effect allows it to do so, but may only return to play once per turn."

I'm sure this would create some issues if there are objective counters that a model has but is killed while buried. Perhaps killing a models while burying it with poison would become very powerful, but that seems like it would take a lot to make that happen on a regular basis.

[Kadeton]

Poison wouldn't be a problem, since it only causes damage when the model activates, and they can't activate while buried.

Returning to play only once per turn is a problem, though, since you haven't stated what happens to a model that has to return when it can't. Example: An Executioner unburies from a Death Marshal's Pine Box, then gets buried again by Colette's Disappearing Act. In the Start Closing Phase, when the model is supposed to be unburied again, what happens?

[Ciroth]

I think I mixed up poison with burning tokens.

You're right. Colette, Death Marshal, Stitched, Soul Stone Miner, Nicodem Avatar, and Dreamer stuff, run afoul of the "unbury once per turn" idea. With Dreamer, I knew this would happen, but didn't care as their are other ways to get the buried model back on a different turn. With other crews, you could end up with no way of getting a buried model back because there is no uniform phase when buried models return. Even if you added "Unless otherwise stated by spells or effects, all models may choose to unbury at the start of the turn," you'd still have issues with stuff like Death Marshals dying and pulling buried models back. Plus, the rules start getting cumbersome.

I will admit that the "unbury once per turn" idea was an attempt to include some of the other ideas in this thread. So, maybe that idea needs to be set aside.

Has anyone thought through the implications of having bury wipe a models clean and remove everything but wounds on the model? Or having a buried model brought back into play recieve slow?

Edited March 17, 2012 by Ciroth

[CRC]

Bury is used both defensively, SS Miner, Dreamer, ...; as well as offensively, Pine Box, Disappearing Act, ...

that would be a very difficult balancing act, as slow would make it much more powerful offensively, and pretty bad defensively, whereas cleaning effects would probably be a power boost for the other type.

[Calmdown]

I dont understand why this is getting so convoluted.

Effects on buried models should end at the same time as they end on not buried models.

You dont need to count the buried model as in play, you just need to alter the end closing phase end-effects statement so that it says "effects end on all models in play and all buried models".

Simples.