Slumming it: Calmdown's Rezzers 2012 Diary

[Guy in Suit]

I think the Dead Rider can fill a similar role to Von Schill - quick, high damage potential, some movement tricks, etc.

VS is just more of an 'Easy Button' as he doesn't have to select a phase and can use soulstones.

Of course most Resser masters don't need SS that much so it's pretty easy to keep VS Well stocked.

I also feel Mercs get overused in wargames simply because EVERYONE can use them thus more ppl are familiar with them, i.e. the first time you used Von Schill was well before you started playing ressers, so there was no learning curve and thus he seems more effective.

I see ppl play Nyss Hunters in WM the same way - they already know exactly how to use them so just take them rather than learn their new battle groups own anti-infantry tools, etc.

[Spiku]

Isn't Von Schill considered one of the best options for anyone not Dreamer?

[Calmdown]

Isn't Von Schill considered one of the best options for anyone not Dreamer?

Not really. Guild have similar/better/more synergistic options, Neverborn have no need for him.

Arcanists benefit from him in a similar way to Rezzers, because they generally also lack speedy models that are tough to kill, although some of their lists dont need him.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Guy in Suit, I see what you are saying, but I would disagree with the sentiment that Resser Master's don't need many SS, they need them as much if not more than other Masters.

Firstly the highest Df on any Resser master is 4, so if they get into combat you need the Stones to even stay alive, Kirai sort of gets around that via her Seishin, but she needs them to do any of the tricks she wants to do so keeping them alive has to be a priority.

Second, their raising abilities require a high cards, even with their high casting, of a specific suit, so in order to pull their summoning off with any regularity you will need to spend the stone on occasion, even if you are not running a dedicated summoning list.

Thirdly, just as with every other master, anytime you want to ensure an ability you have works on an opposing model Stones are your trump card to make it work. If Nicodem wants to paralyze something and in particular a model with use SS, he'd better spend the stone. Seamus want's to hit something with his gun, or with Live for pain, or get multiple models with Undead Psychosis, same thing. Dr. McMorning wants to force a dissect through, spend the stone.

In my experience, and I'll admit my play group is small so I could be wrong, the only masters that don't want to bring as many stones as they can are masters that don't have to do much interacting with the opponent. If you run a cautious Kirai who doesn't plan of using Chill of Death, or getting close to the enemy at all you might be able to get away with bringing a low cache.

[Spiku]

Didn't consider the nature of synergy in the Guild. I did think Zoraida liked him in place of Silurids as objective interaction and a use for her soulstones but evidently not =D

I'll get back to minding my own business given I can only use one merc anyway

[emissary]

The point is, that regardless of Bete dying or not, she still would have done what she needed to do; force Sonnia into single-model targeting mode, which is optimal. There were no stars aligning, simply a very valid tactic that you seem to be ignoring as you're blinded by the fact that Sonnia is good vs Bete.

No need to throw insults around. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean that I'm "blinded". As I said before, it may have worked for you in that specific game but I've mainly been talking in general terms (at fact you've ignored in every post you've done). Sacrificing 1/3 of your crew to something that can take it out rather effortlessly isn't usually a wise decision. Yes, it worked out for you this time, won't deny it. But against a better opponent I don't think it would have done much at all for you as you're making it out to be.

Also, it shouldn't take multiple soulstones for Sonnia to kill Bete. She just needs 1. On the charge she's already getting a positive flip to hit and for damage. Soulstone there to hit if you need to. If you don't connect with a severe damage there, you'll still stop her from casting. If Bete is still standing, use your 0 for Confiscated Lore, then your casting master for Violation of Magic. When that connects she's about to get back the Witchling Stalker she just lost to Von Schill (plus she has a 2" reach so can stop her charge outside Bete's Slow to Die retaliation). At that point you've both just used a soulstone (maybe not for Sonnia) and you're down 9ss in minions for the tradeoff in some board positioning.

Next turn she's free to go. Yes, Von Schill may be in position to harm her, maybe not. She has a lot of soulstones. You may not go first or some bad flips...

[Lucidicide]

Guy in Suit, I see what you are saying, but I would disagree with the sentiment that Resser Master's don't need many SS, they need them as much if not more than other Masters.

Firstly the highest Df on any Resser master is 4, so if they get into combat you need the Stones to even stay alive, Kirai sort of gets around that via her Seishin, but she needs them to do any of the tricks she wants to do so keeping them alive has to be a priority.

Second, their raising abilities require a high cards, even with their high casting, of a specific suit, so in order to pull their summoning off with any regularity you will need to spend the stone on occasion, even if you are not running a dedicated summoning list.

Thirdly, just as with every other master, anytime you want to ensure an ability you have works on an opposing model Stones are your trump card to make it work. If Nicodem wants to paralyze something and in particular a model with use SS, he'd better spend the stone. Seamus want's to hit something with his gun, or with Live for pain, or get multiple models with Undead Psychosis, same thing. Dr. McMorning wants to force a dissect through, spend the stone.

In my experience, and I'll admit my play group is small so I could be wrong, the only masters that don't want to bring as many stones as they can are masters that don't have to do much interacting with the opponent. If you run a cautious Kirai who doesn't plan of using Chill of Death, or getting close to the enemy at all you might be able to get away with bringing a low cache.

I find the Ressers need them because I feel like they are one of the most suit dependent factions. So many times I've seen people need to use a low :crows and SS to get off a spell (like a summon) that is necessary to how they function. I feel like they are just a part of spell casting for them, much like, say, Sonnia.

[nilus]

Didn't consider the nature of synergy in the Guild.

I would argue its less about Synergy with Guild and more the fact that for less points you can take a "Von Schill Lite".

Von Schill still has his place and he can be good in a Guild list but he isn't a must include.

[Guy in Suit]

Von Schill is a soulstone intense henchman - both for Slow to Die heals and for putting solid damage on enemy masters.

Ressers work well with him because they aren't competing as much for soul stones with which to hit enemy masters. I'm not saying Ressers don't need soulstones - just that with an 8 stone cache they will have a few to share, whereas other Masters who are relied upon by their crew to put up the big damage, like Sonia or Tina or whatever would want all 8 stones for themselves.

I agree with you Spiku, I think VS would be great in a Zoraida crew - but I don't play her either.

[emissary]

I find the Ressers need them because I feel like they are one of the most suit dependent factions. So many times I've seen people need to use a low :crows and SS to get off a spell (like a summon) that is necessary to how they function. I feel like they are just a part of spell casting for them, much like, say, Sonnia.

Agreed. I've had to use the low crows and soulstone route a few times myself.

[von Clausewitz]

Advanced Counterspell doesnt work on One with the Night as it's not targeted.

Unless a rules Marshall has ruled otherwise this is incorrect.

RM 51 "Spells that target the caster have a range of C."

One With the Night has a range of C, therefore it has a target (the caster) and can be counterspelled by Sonnia.

[ravenborne]

I know I suggested Sebastian, but vs. guild is probably the one game I don't take him in - unless the plan is to lure them over to him with belles. I like him much better in lists where the enemy is going to come to me.

---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------

Calmdown, do you find it interesting that one of the best models the Ressers can bring is an outcast?

I too was a little sad when Calmdown decided to put his skills to rezzers, and his assessments have generally been to not use most of the models, and in fact to take almost a 1/3 of the points in a merc. When I use him with my rezzers he is always awesome, but it feels so dirty.

[Cornelious1424]

I know I suggested Sebastian, but vs. guild is probably the one game I don't take him in - unless the plan is to lure them over to him with belles. I like him much better in lists where the enemy is going to come to me.

---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------

I too was a little sad when Calmdown decided to put his skills to rezzers, and his assessments have generally been to not use most of the models, and in fact to take almost a 1/3 of the points in a merc. When I use him with my rezzers he is always awesome, but it feels so dirty.

I agree, which is why I don't take this thread seriously. I would hardly say you are making a faction work, or you are "slumming it", when you hire a non Resser model like VS to do the brunt of the work.

[FancyZergling]

Well Von Schill is just an excellent model. He fills the rolls that it seems that the Ressers lack, a Fast Shooty piece that can not only hold down an area, grab objectives, and give increased will power to all models. itssalbotproto will tell you how much he hates WP duels, so even that buff helps. Heck if you are running how Time Lapse does his Nicodem and running Army of the Dead Nicodem and just buffing all your Zombies you will not only have the df and cb buff but now will power to boot. He's just so good.

As Time Lapse put it "Von Schill is like bacon, he just makes everything better.

[Kadeton]

Well Von Schill is just an excellent model. He fills the rolls that it seems that the Ressers lack, a Fast Shooty piece that can not only hold down an area, grab objectives, and give increased will power to all models. itssalbotproto will tell you how much he hates WP duels, so even that buff helps. Heck if you are running how Time Lapse does his Nicodem and running Army of the Dead Nicodem and just buffing all your Zombies you will not only have the df and cb buff but now will power to boot. He's just so good.

As Time Lapse put it "Von Schill is like bacon, he just makes everything better.

Just so you're aware, Von Schill's aura only buffs Wp in Morale Duels, so it generally doesn't do much for Undead.

[brdparker]

I too was a little sad when Calmdown decided to put his skills to rezzers, and his assessments have generally been to not use most of the models, and in fact to take almost a 1/3 of the points in a merc. When I use him with my rezzers he is always awesome, but it feels so dirty.

Ha, do you play Marcus at all? I think in all of the games total that I've run with him, about 1/2 of my points were spent on arcanists and the rest on other factions (and not just the beasties) . But then, by most definitions of the phrase, I'm not a fluff gamer, so I don't feel so bad.

[ravenborne]

Yeah Marcus has the same sort of thing going on. He makes better us of rezzer models some time than rezzers!

[dgraz]

Ha, do you play Marcus at all? I think in all of the games total that I've run with him, about 1/2 of my points were spent on arcanists and the rest on other factions (and not just the beasties) . But then, by most definitions of the phrase, I'm not a fluff gamer, so I don't feel so bad.

That's apples to oranges. Marcus is intentionally designed that way.

[Adanedhel]

RM 51 "Spells that target the caster have a range of C."

One With the Night has a range of C, therefore it has a target (the caster) and can be counterspelled by Sonnia.

EEEK.

No, simply no.

You are conducting a logical fallacy that if A=>B then B=>A

Compare an oak is a tree, so when I see a tree it's an oak.

Likewise this says if spell targets caster=> range C

but that does not necesarilly mean if range C=> targets caster

also compare, if I drink 20 bottles of Whiskey, I'm going to die

but if I'm going to die, the cause need not necessarily be that I drank 20 bottles of Whiskey

(yes I'm a fan of Ireland (a) )

[Spiku]

All Morale Duels are Wp Duels. Not all Wp Duels are Morale Duels.

Just like the Irish rip off of Whisky = Whiskey, but not all Whiskey = Irish.

[Calmdown]

Just so you're aware, Von Schill's aura only buffs Wp in Morale Duels, so it generally doesn't do much for Undead.

Actually it does a lot for Rezzers. McM and Nicodem are both living, as are Mortimer, Sebastian, etc.

Also its really good when your opponent is running avatar Seamus.

[ravenborne]

Calmdown, awesome interview on Gamer's Lounge. I think you are spot on in your assessment of the game.

[Calmdown]

Calmdown, awesome interview on Gamer's Lounge. I think you are spot on in your assessment of the game.

Thanks. Havent listened to it myself yet, hope it wasnt too technical and boring

[GrAYFoX]

EEEK <snip>

No, von Clausewitz is correct for the exact reasons stated:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?23446-Question-about-Advanced-counterspell&p=285138

Edited February 23, 2012 by GrAYFoX
Fixed link

[Calmdown]

No, von Clausewitz is correct for the exact reasons stated:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?23446-Question-about-Advanced-counterspell&p=285138#post285138

Youre missing the point that Adanedhel was making, which was that just because "spells that target the caster have a range of C" it doesnt mean that spells with a range of C are automatically targeted.

However, upon further reading, I think that that is exactly what that sentence is meant to mean; that all spells with a range of C count as self-targeted. Otherwise, that sentence wouldn't actually have any relevance. I think it's just very badly worded.

The thread that you linked doesn't specifically answer the point we are discussing, it answers the question of whether Sonnia can counterspell spells cast on enemy models as well as friendly ones.

I think it requires RM clarification to be honest as the way its written is very ambiguous.