is zero damage still damage?

[zatoichi98]

black blood from the rising powers book reads "all non-neverborn models within 1" suffer 1 WD when this model suffers damage from a strike or melee spell. My question is, if a Performer's attack (0/0/1 poison2) does weak damage on a terror tot, does it take 1 wd from the attack?

[magicpockets]

No. Zero damage is zero damage. The situation you're looking for is "when this model it hit with an attack" which would work even if 0 damage was done. But in your example you need to actually do 1+ damage for it to kick in.

[Asphyxxious]

Hmm i thought it was ruled for poison that it applied on damage and 0 damage still applied poison. I thought there was a difference between 0 damage and no damage such as flipping the black joker on damage or preventing with a soulstone. I might be wrong here but it seems like if that rule is that way this one would still trigger black blood as well

[zatoichi98]

This is very interesting, because in a different thread I asked if Copellius's Slumber trigger still gives poison if you opt to do no damage and just paralyze the model, and a henchman answered yes - the poison is still given as the attack was successful, just no damage was given/taken, implying poison when given is not damage, but becomes so when the model activates. Any thoughts on where this leaves us?

[Q'iq'el]

Hmm i thought it was ruled for poison that it applied on damage and 0 damage still applied poison. I thought there was a difference between 0 damage and no damage such as flipping the black joker on damage or preventing with a soulstone. I might be wrong here but it seems like if that rule is that way this one would still trigger black blood as well

That might have been related to how Poison is supposed to work rather than how damage works. The problem is we don't have Poison described very well in the manual...

I'd say it is "whenever the attack succeeds, even if it does 0 damage, the Poison goes through", with assumption Black Joker or prevented damage means failure, but a successful attack with 0 damage means success.

In other areas, especially when the wording implies the damage causes the effect to go off, 0 damage may still be not enough to trigger the effect.

Also I'd like to point out Black Blood is worded very specifically and I don't think it even is a comparable issue.

According to the Rules Manual, Black Blood wounds (as in: causes Wd rather than Dg) nearby models only after the model has suffered a Wd.

Not only the damage has to go through, but there must be at least 1 Wd applied to the Black Blood model for it to go off.

In other words, OP has the wording of Black Blood wrong.

[Adran]

0 damage is not the same as No damage.

If damage is dealt they poison occurs even if its 0 damage. If No damage was dealt the poison won't occur.

1 -1(wound prevention flip for example) = No damage

And by Damage, I'm not refereing to DG, but the whole Damage dealing step,

[Q'iq'el]

0 damage is not the same as No damage.

If damage is dealt they poison occurs even if its 0 damage. If No damage was dealt the poison won't occur.

1 -1(wound prevention flip for example) = No damage

And by Damage, I'm not refereing to DG, but the whole Damage dealing step,

Yup, but Black Blood is completely different case, because it doesn't even trigger off the damage. It triggers of 1 or more Wd caused. There's nothing muddy or intricate about it - if there's no Wd applied, it can't trigger.

[Therril_83]

Doesn't Poison actually trigger of hitting a model rather than doing damage? Whereas Black Blood triggers from suffering damage (Dg or Wd depending on the wording, haven't thought about that) and not from suffering a hit.

Edited November 14, 2011 by DaemonChild

[Adran]

This is very interesting, because in a different thread I asked if Copellius's Slumber trigger still gives poison if you opt to do no damage and just paralyze the model, and a henchman answered yes - the poison is still given as the attack was successful, just no damage was given/taken, implying poison when given is not damage, but becomes so when the model activates. Any thoughts on where this leaves us?

Don't know where you asked, but this thread in the rules forum is pretty catagorical

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24757&highlight=poison

Qiqel

You've not quoted the rules manual, and its not quite that straight forward.

It actually says

:pulse1 all non neverborn models suffer 1 wd when this model suffers Wd from a melee strike or Melee Spell.

So I think following from the poison ruling 0 damage (becoming 0 wd) probably does trigger black blood, but if I was playing the neverborn I certainly wouldn't try and claim it.

[magicpockets]

^^ I thought the "ruling" so to speak was that poison was part of the attack so even if no damage then the poison still applied. Something that says it needs to do a wound such as black blood surely needs to do a wound to go off?

[Ratty]

The Poison works if there is 0 Dg. However doesn't work if there is No Damage. A model causes No Damage if it flips a Black Joker, or the damage is reduced to No damage by spending a soulstone during damage Resolution and removing any Dg caused, a model may spend a Soulstone when 0 Dg is being caused to lower it to No Damage.

To be really precise, A model counts as taking Damage if Damage Resolution is completed. Flipping a Black Joker means you never start Damage Resolution. Soulstoning the Dg down to No Damage interrupts the Damage Resolution meaning it never gets to the end of the Resolution.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Ratty

[maverickman5]

The Poison works if there is 0 Dg. However doesn't work if there is No Damage. A model causes No Damage if it flips a Black Joker, or the damage is reduced to No damage by spending a soulstone during damage Resolution and removing any Dg caused, a model may spend a Soulstone when 0 Dg is being caused to lower it to No Damage.

To be really precise, A model counts as taking Damage if Damage Resolution is completed. Flipping a Black Joker means you never start Damage Resolution. Soulstoning the Dg down to No Damage interrupts the Damage Resolution meaning it never gets to the end of the Resolution.

Is this a new rule? Spending a soulstone prevents Wds not Dg, so a model would recieve 0 Dg before it had a chance to spend the soulstone. Or am I incorrectly understanding this?

[rancor709]

The flip is a damage prevent flip not wounds. Which is why spells that do straight wounds cannot be mitagaged through a dmamge prevention flip. As no damage is occurring only wounds.

[zatoichi98]

This was all very insightful helpful. Thank you.

[micahwc]

I think the debate over semantics is one of the weaknessess of this game in its current form.

In the English language there is no practical difference between 0 and nothingness.

[Cunning]

The flip is a damage prevent flip not wounds. Which is why spells that do straight wounds cannot be mitagaged through a dmamge prevention flip. As no damage is occurring only wounds.

Actually since the rules manual came out it's been changed to wounds prevention rather than damage prevention.

[Adran]

I think the debate over semantics is one of the weaknessess of this game in its current form.

In the English language there is no practical difference between 0 and nothingness.

That entirely depends on the context you are using them in. I agree in general conversation there is little difference, but there are certainly some conversations where there is a difference between naught and nothing.

I have 0 apples in my pocket does not mean that I have nothing in my pocket for example

I think this is one of those places where there is a difference.

Dg is casued

Dg is multiplied/divided as appropriate

Dg is increased/reduced as appropriate

Dg is turned to wd (Or if Wd are caused, start here)

Wd is multiplied/divided as appropriate

wd is increased/reduced as appropriate

Wound prevention flip can occur here

Apply wd to cards.

Apply effects i.e. poison

But somethign doing 0 dg will go through the process and do 0 wounds, but has still done damage so can apply poison.

Something which does no dg or no wd or has had its dg or wd reduced to less than 1 deals no damage, so poisoin doesn't apply

[Q'iq'el]

The semantics come into the argument where the word "suffer" is being used. Perhaps 0Wd is still a number of Wd, but can you suffer 0 Wd?!

I for one automatically assumed it means at least 1 Wd.