Walking Away from the table... am I the only one that considers this?

[Mr_Smigs]

seriously...

after the handful of Dreamer/Alp games I've played,

dozens of simulations to try and figure out solutions (simulations meaning playing against myself using tactics mentioned on the forums)

the third Alp balance thread in this month alone...

and the

capricious nature of rulings right now

am I the only one who feels that when the opponent sets down the dreamer, it's more productive to just walk away from the table and find someone else to play?

I mean, really,

I can wrap my head around potential solutions to everything else without having to completely rebuild my army

(I admit, I'm a firm believer that every army should be able to win against every other army, if the game is balanced)

just a matter of figuring out tactics...

and I know this isn't totally true... some builds arn't ideal and have to bank on going for a draw... but at least it's not a complete table wipe on turn 2....

but every time a Dreamer/Alp discussion comes up,

I come to the conclusion that, even in a tourney, if the opponent drops an airstrike army on the table against my Victorian-era trenchers, that I'd rather just walk since I won't feel the game was entertaining enough to spend the 85 minutes to play.

[Dolomyte]

seriously...

after the handful of Dreamer/Alp games I've played,

dozens of simulations to try and figure out solutions (simulations meaning playing against myself using tactics mentioned on the forums)

the third Alp balance thread in this month alone...

and the

am I the only one who feels that when the opponent sets down the dreamer, it's more productive to just walk away from the table and find someone else to play?

I mean, really,

I can wrap my head around potential solutions to everything else without having to completely rebuild my army

(I admit, I'm a firm believer that every army should be able to win against every other army, if the game is balanced)

just a matter of figuring out tactics...

and I know this isn't totally true... some builds arn't ideal and have to bank on going for a draw... but at least it's not a complete table wipe on turn 2....

but every time a Dreamer/Alp discussion comes up,

I come to the conclusion that, even in a tourney, if the opponent drops an airstrike army on the table against my Victorian-era trenchers, that I'd rather just walk since I won't feel the game was entertaining enough to spend the 85 minutes to play.

What army do you use? like give me the list and point value you play it.

[Stonedog-7]

Just a quick question out of interest as you mention walking away from the Dreamer and Dreamer/Alps seperately

Is it purely the Dreamer or specifically Dreamer with Alps and is there a certain number of alps (say just 2) that you might consider playing against?

Purely asking as there's no dreamer players locally yet (though myself and one other person have both been considering him) and am curious

[Eddie]

am I the only one who feels that when the opponent sets down the dreamer, it's more productive to just walk away from the table and find someone else to play?

No. Cause I play the dreamer without alps.

[tadaka]

I know how you feel. There are a lot of ways to play the game if the crew your fighting or the mission is not fun find a new game. As for a tournament you have to decide are you playing for chalange or fun. If its chalange suck it up and game. If its for fun decide if one bad round is going to ruin it for you.

[Dolomyte]

I don't want anyone to walk away from the table, I understand there are matchups right now that just are not fun to play against, and really not fun to play.

When it comes to a tournaments I have changed my style so that against arcanists, guild, ressers, and outcasts I build for the strategy. against neverborn you build a third of your list for the lure bomb, a third for the alp bomb, and a third for the strategy.

If you post what your playing at, what your using, and what you have available. I'll sit on these forums all night trying to help you have fun with it (even if that fun is solely seeing the look on your opponents face when he cheese list fails)

But don't walk away from the table, to me its like the south park / family guy episode. once an episode gets pulled, the show starts to die.

[Sholto]

(I admit, I'm a firm believer that every army should be able to win against every other army, if the game is balanced)

That is not the way the game was designed. You pick crews after determining Strategies and declaring Factions. You can bring the same crew regardless, but you will hit problems if you don't make use of the flexibility the game has provided you with.

[Calmdown]

If something's annoying you that much because you think it's OP, you have three options:

1) Don't play against it (not an option in tournament play)

2) Accept that it's better, and learn how best to deal with it

3) Play it yourself

Walking away is a pointless exercise and gets you nowhere.

Personally I've chosen 3) and switched to Neverborn. Hopefully when I'm bored with Neverborn, I will have also achieved a large part of 2) and be a better player for it.

[Mr_Smigs]

clarifying some questions:

1. I play for fun. that's all. if i wanted to play for competition I'd go back to chess where the tactics are all that matter. (tho i still feel the knight is a totally broken model )

2. I play mostly 25ss and 30ss games of starter boxes... (when I say "I play" that doesn't mean the opponent does the same for army comp)... it's easier to get people interested in a game when you're playing the stock sets and can explain that it's still viable... i can't count the number of people i've seen walk away from a demo table when they're told "you need to invest another 10 purchases to really have a chance in the game..."

initially, i ran Guild (all 3 boxes, tho now i'm down to Justice and Perdita... with a couple guild guard)... and I'm switching to a viki list... but I've run the sims with the Seamus, McMourning, Rasputina, Marcus, and Ramos boxes...

3. the Dreamer/Alp combo specifically.... 3 alps min, that can basically garuntee 6 damage on a target without activating is a bit much...

[Dark Alleycat]

The alp bomb is a dangerous combo. I dont think that walking away rather then playing it is unreasonable in a non tournament situation. Simply explain to your opponent that you do not enjoy playing that list,congratulate him on a won game and go play someone else.

If you have a notion that your opponent is going to put down an alp bomb,there are a couple of things you can do. first and foremost,kill his daydreams at range. this bones dreamer players like you would not believe. Secondly,invest in death marshals if you are playing guild. slow to die scares Dreamer players for a reason...they are a glass cannon...if you get the chance to smack them before you die,they suffer.Same with witchling stalkers. 2 witchling stalkers will kill all the alps in a burst around them. Also,consider Sonnia. her inferno ability will mean that your opponent wont dare put down his alps or his dreamer because if he does they die. And your witchlings only take 1 damage from the inferno,not 3 like everyone else does.

2 death marshals,2 witchling stalkers,Executioner,Sonnia will make for a 25 point list that will do rather well against the alp bomb.

Im not saying that telling your opponent "no thanks,I dont like playing agianst the alp bomb" is unreasonable. But there are ways to beat it,and most dont require too much beyond the base box set.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Dark Alleycat

[Sliver Chocobo]

Our LGS lucky has banned Alps in torment play, so I havn't seen them fir a while, but I agree something needs to done

[Mr_Smigs]

Immune to influence models. Yes it requires stepping outside of the box sets. But if your opponent cant make you make wp duels,then those alps become meaningless wastes of space.

I thought Immune to Influence was pointless as there is no defender in the Alp power (straight test, not opposed)

[Ratty]

I thought Immune to Influence was pointless as there is no defender in the Alp power (straight test, not opposed)

Immune to Influence wouldn't work.

[Dark Alleycat]

Ahhh,hmmm,well it has beena while since i faced the alp bomb after showing fun ways of dealign with it.

so use the executioner instead of the Peacebringer. he kills one before he dies as a slow to die,heals up and then goes and kills two more.

[Odin1981]

Ahhh,hmmm,well it has beena while since i faced the alp bomb after showing fun ways of dealign with it.

so use the executioner instead of the Peacebringer. he kills one before he dies as a slow to die,heals up and then goes and kills two more.

The only problem with the above mentioned example is your banking on the opponent making a mistake by putting a alp in melee range of a executioner. Chances are in a game against a "good" opponent there are only two models ever that would get close to him (chompy taking him out or coppelious paralizing him before he gets killed to counteract exe's s2d.

[JMGraham]

"Walking away" is not an option in tournament play (at least, not a good one). It also strikes me as a poor one in casual play. In casual play, why not just say to your opponent: "Hey, I've found that I don't enjoy games against alp bombs - could you please try something different today?".

If the person's response is, "Heck no. I'll take what I want to, you prat!", then the problem isn't the alp bomb, it's that they're a jerk. In that case, you refuse the game because they're unreasonable and unaccommodating, not because they take the Dreamer.

The way I see it, the folks we play with are either friends, or potential friends, and should be treated as such until proven otherwise. If my friends kept doing stuff that bothered me, I would talk with them about it.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Our LGS lucky has banned Alps in torment play, so I havn't seen them fir a while, but I agree something needs to done

Our Meta has not banned it out right but any respectable player will not bring it because there is no glory or honor in playing it.

Does it work? When used right it is almost impossible to beat unless the Alp Bomb player A) Really screws up. Or Has the worst flips.

This has been shown time and again that it 'can' be beaten, but who want to watch Tyson beat on a High-school boxer for the off chance the High Schoolers might get lucky?

[Mentat_Canis]

If your opponent is the same most of the time and he always brings the "Alp Bomb" and he is always bringing 4 in the 25-35 sized game yes I would have not problem with just walking away from him. It doesn't work in the tournament setup but I think most people play for fun.

I personally think there are ways of getting around it but it is a very nasty list. I have taken alps in numbers 3 or more only twice and have to say they aren't fun to play with, they make for a slow game and not a hugely strategic one. I would recommend you say to the other player you play in a fun game why are you taking that list, if they say they just want to test it out let them if they need to win at all cost in a friendly game don't play them.

Remember it is a game if you are not having fun don't play if you are having fun well great you are having fun. Trust me 2 teddies with corpelious, and a stitched add some daydreams is a great 35 stone list that is fun for both players.

So if he is always wants to just stomp with one list that you don't enjoy playing against walk away or learn how to beat it which is hard to do I enjoy having Cassandra nuke it but well everyone has there own ways to deal.

I also do not support banning models or forcing changes to models unless they are agreed on by are persons involved.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Our Meta has not banned it out right but any respectable player will not bring it because there is no glory or honor in playing it.

Does it work? When used right it is almost impossible to beat unless the Alp Bomb player A) Really screws up. Or Has the worst flips.

This has been shown time and again that it 'can' be beaten, but who want to watch Tyson beat on a High-school boxer for the off chance the High Schoolers might get lucky?

We got the point where 4/8 of our plays were playing the Alp bomb, the rest (me as well) wanted to quit if saw it keep going on

[Alviaran]

As a new player who is interested in the Dreamer (not because of the power level. Honestly, his entire concept in both gameplay and fluff really appeals to me), I see a lot of these Alp threads. And I am also interested in the earlier question:

Is it just the Dreamer or the Dreamer with Alps. If the latter, is there a certain point where the Alps become too many to be fair? Is there a certain point where they are still powerful, but one can still reasonably deal with them? I would guess that dropping six on the table is always going to be too much. What about three?

I want to play the Dreamer and I want to have a variety of models to run with him. But I also want to avoid the excessive Alps. At least partially because that will just be painful for anyone else but also because I will likely not field them, or at least in reduced numbers, and end up with unused models as a result.

[Sliver Chocobo]

It's not the dreamer, it's the dream with Alps (far too many of them)

[Dolomyte]

3 or more is where the power level swings.

[Mentat_Canis]

As a new player who is interested in the Dreamer (not because of the power level. Honestly, his entire concept in both gameplay and fluff really appeals to me), I see a lot of these Alp threads. And I am also interested in the earlier question:

Is it just the Dreamer or the Dreamer with Alps. If the latter, is there a certain point where the Alps become too many to be fair? Is there a certain point where they are still powerful, but one can still reasonably deal with them? I would guess that dropping six on the table is always going to be too much. What about three?

I want to play the Dreamer and I want to have a variety of models to run with him. But I also want to avoid the excessive Alps. At least partially because that will just be painful for anyone else but also because I will likely not field them, or at least in reduced numbers, and end up with unused models as a result.

The dreamer is great and has tons of tricks and is lots of fun to play with. The big issue with is the alps because they make slow and do wounds on your opponents activations and gives negative twists to those tests so its very hard to pass and they are 3 points a pop. Its alps that people have the big issue with from what I have seen. It gets over the top when someone brings 3+. The dreamer does have enough models to have fun with so you don't really need to take them. They are also a one trick pony they drop on a models ruin its day and if you clump up they drop on the clump.

Don't let the Dreamer/Alp hate deter you from getting the dreamer just make sure you vary your lists and have fun with it.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The Dreamer himself is an issue as well. I've posted my arguments for why in other threads so I won't go into a terribly lengthy post here. Suffice to summarize:

1: The ability for a model to be able in one activation to not only drop his entire crew on yours on the first turn on the game in your own deployment zone

coupled with

2: a large SS cache

and

3: one of the best Melee masters in the game

is a little strong in my opinion.

I think the alp bomb itself is worse, but I don't know how many other crews can wipe out the opposing crew on the first turn in the opponents own deployment zone and still be considered fair.

[pugwhan]

Maybe I missed it but was it a Dreamer/Alp crew that won the tournaments at Gencon? Is this team dominating any of the big tournaments?