Alp Bomb, Mark 2

[Adran]

I’m going to ignore the broken/overpowered discussion.

He might be, but unless you just refuse to play against stuff you view as Broken, people will still face him.

And malifaux is much less luck dependant than Warhammer.

But back to the point.

Lets assume you are playing against a Dreamer list with just Alps.

What can you do?

For ease I am going to assume that your opponent has gone first and placed the “bomb” on all your models.

If you have any models outside of the Bomb then you are probably going to want to activate these and bring them in to dismantle the bomb.

If your entire force is in the bomb then you need to work out how to dismantle it from the inside.

There are 3 important distances to know in the Bomb.

Alps within 4” cause Smoother. Each Model will only take 1 smoother test when it activates, further alps in range will just make it harder by giving you negative flips on your wp-12 test. Each Model that fails receives Slow. Most Masters are WP 6 or better, so soulstoning the flip should pass it.

Feed on Dreams. Alps within 3” give wounds to every model that gains slow.

Exhaustion. Alps within 1” give a wound every time you make a walk action or a strike action. This won’t effect charges, focused strikes, or other effects that generate a strike (i.e. Whirling death). Flurry generates 3 strike actions so these will trigger exhaustion

Alps are Df4 and 3 wounds.

I am going to look at what each master can do to dismantle the bomb from the inside. This will hopefully show the principle and people can follow some of the suggestions to use minions to also do this.

A large part of the Bomb relies on the location of the pieces, and that is very board dependent.

I don’t own all the masters and I haven’t played with them all, so there may well be several different things I’ve missed.

Guild

Lady Justice

3 melee strikes killing alps on weak at 2”

Melee expert on your crew, giving them extra attacks to help them kill Alps

Perdita

3 melee or ranged strikes killing alps on weak.

Obey to either use one of your models to kill an alp, move out of the way, or moves an alp out of the way.

Sonnia Criid

Well Inferno will be able to clear them out, but only if she dies or at the end closing phase. Otherwise her ruined blade will need moderate at the 2” range. If she can get out of Melee, her flame burst will be very useful, especially with the Trigger explosive burst.

Hoffman

One of the easiest models to disrupt the bomb.

Open Circuit with 1 construct in Base contact will do enough damage to kill every alp in 3”

Machine Puppet on a model in Melee with an Alp has a good chance of killing it.

Lucius.

His Issue command spell will allow minions to move to a better place, or kill nearby alps.

His reinforcements spell will allow you to place one of your minions in a better place before it activates.

Arcanist

Ramos

Controlled Detonation will do 2 damage to all models with 2” of one of your constructs at the cost of your construct.

Summon Electrical creation this can either walk into several alps, doing 1 damage to each, or burst doing 3 damage in a 2” radius.

Rasputina

She will struggle to kill lots of alps. Her best chance of doing this is Decembers curse, on severe to do blast damage.

Marcus

Can make 3 strikes (or 2 strikes and a charge) with minimum damage 3 at melee range 2.

Collette

Disappearing act on alps will remove them from the bomb. If you have masks, this won’t cost soulstone as long as it works.

Magicians duel on moderate will kill an Alp within 3 on moderate damage and get you an extra soulstone.

Discharge soulstone kills on moderate at ranged.

Passive willpower boost to all her crew helping them resist smoother

Ressurectionist

Seamus

Undead psychosis will force alps to be further than 3” from undead when they activate. It will probably effect at least 2 alps each cast.

Weak damage on the .50 flint lock kills

Moderate damage on his bag of tools kills alps.

Nicodem

Decay on Severe kills alps under the blast as well as healing undead

McMorning

Scalpel slinging gets you where you want, and moderate damage kills the alp.

Scalpel magic means that Dissection and Wracked with pain would gain a melee strike afterwards and weak will kill the alp.

Organ donor means you don’t care how many wounds he takes, he’ll be healthy at the end of it.

melee strikes require a moderate to kill on their own.

Neverbourne

Lileth

2” melee range with enough damage from weak to kill an alp. She is fast so even if she doesn’t get the 6 required she will have 2 actions.

Whirling death makes a strike against every model within 2” with her greatsword. This costs 2 ap, but will allow her to kill all alps in 2”. She doesn’t take damage from Exhaustion doing this.

Transposition can be cast to move models about in the bomb. This can disrupt the ranges of the alps, and allow you to get a model where it can do the most damage.

Pandora

Mental anguish trigger forces the alps to fall back.

Granted it relies on there being 2 sorrows as well, but incite/pacify can kill through emotional trauma and stress.

Zoraida

Almost guaranteed to not get slow. You need 2 so with soulstone you can only fail if you get a Black joker as one card and a 1 as the other.

Repulsive will push all models to 6” from Zoraida. This will disrupt any careful placing. Hopefully you can then use the rest of the crew to kill off alps that are on their own.

Obey will allow one of your models to Strike or charge, or will move an alp away.

Dreamer

Nightmares are immune to smoother.

You can choose where to drop Chompy

Outcast

Viktorias

Are probably going to be able to activate both of your masters. Need 6s for both to pass the alps, but you’ll get 4-6 attacks at range 2” to kill alps on weak damage. Whirlwind can increase this if you’re in range of more than 1 alp. Remember the First Vikoria can reduce the number of alps near the second, making its chances of not getting slow much better.

Sisters in sprit can switch places, so if you have cleared out a spot with the Sword viktoria that is safe and still have 1 Ap left, she can use this to get the Gun Viktoria some where safe to start where she can shoot, needing moderate to kill.

Leveticus

Necrotic unmaking and Unnatural wasting both kill an alp.

Sommer

Pull my finger twice kills all alps in 3”

Severe damage with a Boomer strike does enough in damage on the blast to kill alps.

Von Schill

If any of the Alps are not in Melee, then he can kill them with weak damage from his gun. His Nimble and Augmented jump will allow him to get somewhere to take a shot even if he failed on his willpower.

In Melee he only has a 1” range so will take damage using it against Alps. He needs moderate damage, so you need fairly good cards to get two moderates. He does give all his crew slow to die, allowing them to make a strike even as they die.

Don’t have access to the cards of the other masters at the moment.

I know that the Dreamer is very unlikely to just bring Alps. But knowing what to do against them is part of the battle. And every master bar possibly 3 can seriously damage the Alp Bomb on their activation after it has landed by removing at least 2 alps.

After this its an arms race. Can the dreamer sure up his bomb better than the other person works out how to dismantle it. Addition of Stiched togethers can make targeting harder, but at the cost of reducing the number of alps. Adding in hard melee threats to the bomb makes the non dreamer consider activation order. Is it worth exposing more models to Smoother and

Feed on dreams to take out that threat, or are you better making the rest of your turn easier even if you let Teddy attack before you.

[Q'iq'el]

And malifaux is much less luck dependant than Warhammer.

Just for the record - never said it was. I just made an off-side remark that if you come from a system like Warhammer hoping for reliability, the game will disappoint.

Much less luck-dependant doesn't make it predictable or reliable.

[Calmdown]

Just for the record - never said it was. I just made an off-side remark that if you come from a system like Warhammer hoping for reliability, the game will disappoint.

Much less luck-dependant doesn't make it predictable or reliable.

Yep. I think most people don't really understand the dynamics of statistics, much less the difference between a card game and a dice game, much much less the effect that scale has on a game like Malifaux.

The point is - dice even out over time on average, and in Warhammer you roll lots of dice. In Malifaux, you can win or lose the game on just 2-3 bad flips or cases of extreme good/bad luck.

The theory that 'both players should pull roughly the same cards in a turn' is true, but the order in which those cards come up makes the game even more random than a dice game. Sometimes you'll see your 13s disappear on negative twist damage flips, you'll flip 12s of the wrong suit to cast spells, you'll flip 1s for all of your important offensive abilities, and so on. In fact, not to blow my own trumpet, but I'd go so far as to say that of the 10~ Malifaux games I haven't won since being out of the "I'm new and learning the rules" phase, most of those have been to incredibly imbalanced card flips on one side or the other.

Math asked me to come read this topic and comment but honestly, I can't see anything to comment on other than to agree with your conclusions mate; the Dreamer is broken, pure and simple. Counter tactics to what he can do give you options but not solutions; most counter tactics rely on bad play by the Dreamer to make those tactics viable. It takes large disparity in the random portions of the game - ingame card flips, strategy flips, scenery - and/or disparities in player skill for the Dreamer to lose a game. Assuming all things are reasonably equal on both sides, I don't think the Dreamer can be beaten as he is just so far beyond any other master in the game it's insane. Luckily, player skill disparities and luck do affect the game meaning he is far from an auto-win, but the fact that it takes random factors to lose pretty much defines him as broken. This game has a long way to go and the game designers have a lot to learn to bring their factions and masters onto similar levels, as well as a long way to go in terms of learning how to control and make rulings so that the game is sane and stable, which it currently isn't.

...and this is why I'm playing Infinity now

Edited September 29, 2011 by Calmdown

[Lucidicide]

Luckily, player skill disparities and luck do affect the game meaning he is far from an auto-win, but the fact that it takes random factors to lose pretty much defines him as broken. This game has a long way to go and the game designers have a lot to learn to bring their factions and masters onto similar levels, as well as a long way to go in terms of learning how to control and make rulings so that the game is sane and stable, which it currently isn't.

So this is a huge statement. First, many many people disagree with you here, as shown by the fact that people have made specific suggestions on what you can do to defeat the Dreamer, and none of them have involved "flip a lot of 13s."

Second, if you are going to then go so far as to say that the whole game is unbalanced (which, granted, you don't say, but you heavily imply it) and insane/unstable, I think that is 1) another thread and 2) in need of some serious support. There have been plenty of balance threads in the past.

I am a believer that there are things that can be improved upon here, but wow.

Assuming all things are reasonably equal on both sides, I don't think the Dreamer can be beaten as he is just so far beyond any other master in the game it's insane.

I just don't see any way this statement can be true. The Dreamer is not "so far beyond... that it's insane."

Honestly, I've been discussing Dreamer balance with people for a very long time, and the amount of hyperbole employed by both sides makes the argument nearly impossible to make on either side.

[Calmdown]

Honestly, I've been discussing Dreamer balance with people for a very long time, and the amount of hyperbole employed by both sides makes the argument nearly impossible to make on either side.

This is not hyperbole, I went so far as to buy the Dreamer to play it and find out his strengths and weaknesses first hand. No doubt he does have strengths and weaknesses, but his strengths are stronger and his weaknesses so few (and covered for by his strengths) compared to any other master in the game - even the likes of Kirai, Collette and other Neverborn masters - that he is in a tier all of his own.

I'm not being pessimistic here. I have no faction allegiance, and no reason to argue in either direction other than facts. You don't have to agree with me (and indeed most people would rather take the rosy view and defend the game they love than accept that there are issues, which is why I've stopped playing actively) but please dont imply that I'm biased.

[Dolomyte]

We press on as we have been, with "Neverborn are OP!" threads popping up on a regular basis, and numerous other threads being hijacked constantly by people who aren't willing to play the game as it is, and can't trust that Wyrd's working on it or capable of fixing it without the salvation of their personal intervention.

For those of us who think it's fine, the only thing we can do is endure the constant griping.

For those of you who don't, your options are:

A) Stick around and trust they'll fix it

Believe they'll never fix it, but that the game's playable anyway

C) Quit the game

There's a secondary choice on your part for how miserable you decide to make everyone else in the process, but let's be honest here - we're way, WAY past productive discussion on this.

Concur

[Buhallin]

Second, I have to disagree with your list of options. Wyrd has provided testing because they obviously care about the community and their thoughts. If there are imbalances, no one should say "I hope Wyrd notices." Rather, their concerns should be brought up.

Oh, I certainly agree with this 100%.

But does anyone really think that concerns with the Dreamer HAVEN'T been brought up at this point? Does anyone think that the fact that Wyrd hasn't cuddled the Dreamer is because they haven't noticed that there are players out there who think he's broken?

So it's in Wyrd's court now. If you want to discuss how to limit/mitigate/beat what you think is OP, there's benefit to that. But going on and on and on and on about how he's OP and nobody can convince you otherwise and nothing will do but having him cuddled... that accomplishes nothing but making noise. And if you (in the generic 'you') truly feel that way, then your options really are to either endure it or quit.

[Adran]

Regarding using alps to delay deployment of the bomb.

The Dreamer can not pick all his models up from one side of the board and deposit them on the other in one activation.

If the models are on the table they can not be moved more than 12", and that requires the dreamer to be exactly 6" away from the model.

You largely only need to be worried about being bombed by the models that are not on the table at the start of the turn.

Until the dreamer has activated each turn you dont know what will be on the board or off the board at the beginning of next turn though.

Of course, you could be such a good player, and with in 6 games you have Dreamer so completely worked out, no-one else has a chance of beating him.

I can believe he is one of the hardest masters to beat, possibly the hardest. I don't believe that he is so far above any other master that regardless of schemes or stratergies in the game, that only bad luck or a much better player can beat him. I have faced several of the tactics people talk about here, and whilst they are good, and very tough to face, I don't see them as unbeatable.

[karn987]

This is not hyperbole, I went so far as to buy the Dreamer to play it and find out his strengths and weaknesses first hand. No doubt he does have strengths and weaknesses, but his strengths are stronger and his weaknesses so few (and covered for by his strengths) compared to any other master in the game - even the likes of Kirai, Collette and other Neverborn masters - that he is in a tier all of his own.

I'm not being pessimistic here. I have no faction allegiance, and no reason to argue in either direction other than facts. You don't have to agree with me (and indeed most people would rather take the rosy view and defend the game they love than accept that there are issues, which is why I've stopped playing actively) but please dont imply that I'm biased.

But you are certainly one to jump to conclussions as you have proven over and over again accross the forums (ex: remember the Book 3 resser model thread?). I doubt you've even played many games with the Dreamer and haven't even unraveled him fully. You've probably never seen the various pinch situations which spawned the creation and interaction of many of his abilities. You denounce things you've probably never even tried all to keep your rosey view on your theory-faux skills and view of the game. We've read your arguements over and over again, and they have not held water when put to the test. When confronted with a dirrect counter agruement, you avoid the point and jump to something else. So this is what you've presented to us to backup your claims.

You have made some very true statements and we've agreed with those. But the Dreamer is not on a level of his own. He is certainly one of the hardest masters in the game to beat when in the hands of a skilled player. But a simple bit of proof is in your one of the only few crying wolf with this. Many others have been brought to understand where his holes and cracks are and have seen there are things they can do against him.

He has issues, yes. We've all come to agree on that. But he is not an auto-win Master, he is not unbeatable, and every single crew in the game has something they can do against him. I've explained this over and over again, if you go into the game with this negative mentality you've already lost. If you let the Dreamer player dictate your every move and action, you've already lost. His crew is reasonably fragile and has a percise sequence of activations and 2 lynch pin models. If you take out either set of Lynch Pins, the crew falls apart or is at the very least, hanicapped.

A poster a page back gave a very good list breakdown of what just the Masters can do to counter the Alp bomb alone. Guess what? It all works and suddenly your out 9+ ss worth of models. I'm not saying this makes him "balanced", but your making a mountain out of a mole hill with this stuff and essentially fear-mongering. You can win against him and it doesn't take a "special list" to do it. It takes knowledge of what your models can do, what the Dreamer's models can do, and some common sense.

That list is a great resource and one that will probably go up on the wiki because I get 1 or 2 questions a week from players who want to learn how to handle the Dreamer. I give them the same answers I've given you and I hear back from many of them after the fact that yes, it did work. None have ever come back and said "wow I crushed the Dreamer" but the ones who do come back have said they found him much more managable.

Edited September 29, 2011 by karn987

[karn987]

Back to something constructive...

If anyone is willing to make the attempt, the wiki has been looking for people willing to write and contribute to a section on handling the Dreamer and countering the Alp Bomb. If your up for helping with this, please PM me and I'll get you on board.

[Calmdown]

Stuff

Remember I've been the one consistently to point out various of his 'holes and cracks'.

But you confuse the issue entirely. You assume that just because a model has weaknesses, it means that the model must be ok. Let's take an extreme example; if model A has 1 weakness, and model B has 10, are things balanced? This is what you're basically arguing here.

The simple fact that it takes this level of input, this level of counter tactics and this level of dedicated thinking to even attempt to compete with the Dreamer should be evidence enough that he is in an undesirable state for the health of the game.

In any case, you're convinced that everything is fine. I'm not. Who honestly cares? People are entitled to their own opinions, and people play on different levels that obviates game balance anyway. The game is story and character driven, not tournament driven, and that's the way it is. Wyrd have neither the experience, ability or inclination to change that. Malifaux is in a good state for fun play right now when players can avoid playing with/against masters they dont enjoy, and that's where the game firmly belongs.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Calmdown

[karn987]

Remember I've been the one consistently to point out various of his 'holes and cracks'.

But you confuse the issue entirely. You assume that just because a model has weaknesses, it means that the model must be ok. Let's take an extreme example; if model A has 1 weakness, and model B has 10, are things balanced? This is what you're basically arguing here.

The simple fact that it takes this level of input, this level of counter tactics and this level of dedicated thinking to even attempt to compete with the Dreamer should be evidence enough that he is in an undesirable state for the health of the game.

In any case, you're convinced that everything is fine. I'm not. Who honestly cares?

Not even close... are you reading the same thing I posted? I admited flat out infront of you that everything is not fine and that the Dreamer does have issues. This is the quote from it:

He has issues, yes. We've all come to agree on that

But lets take your extreme example. You need to know more, its not that black and white. What does Model A due? What is its level of impact on the game compared to that of B? If model A had the same impact on the game as B and cost the same or less, then yes that would be an issue. But if A cost more, or had less impact etc... see where I'm going? Not Black and White.

I'm not confusing the issue at all, I'm dirrectly responding to what your saying. You can't just shove off my point that easily and things are not as Black and White as you want to make them. Your talking about a very complex issue and trying to boil it down to something simple. That doesn't work with this, it leads to huge flaws.

Yes, the Dreamer has problems. He is out of line with the rest of the game and I agree he could use some tweaks. But you make him out to be completely unstoppable save for luck or a screw up by the Dreamer player. But this isn't even close to the truth as many players have said to you over and over again. We've presented counter arguements several times and each of your points that have been wrong have been brought down several times. When asked for play reports of your games, you've given nothing. When asked for further proof, you've changed topics. You have been helpful with your comments on what you would do to tweak the Dreamer though and you have certainly given some good ideas on some points of countering his meta. I would be absolutely remiss not to admit this.

Edited September 29, 2011 by karn987

[Calmdown]

When asked for play reports of your games, you've given nothing. When asked for further proof, you've changed topics.

I'm not sure you're not confusing me with someone else. Rarely do I ever shirk posting

You also seem to be under some delusion that posting a counter argument means that the original argument was invalid. If there was a definite binary outcome, it wouldn't have been an argument in the first place.

Honestly though, you're one of the people I consider impossible to appease even if you were presented with overwhelming evidence in any direction. Your view of the game is rosy, and you're blinded by how much you enjoy it. I also enjoyed the game, enough to be willing to discuss for long hours on the forums, the difference is that I draw conclusions from my experiences where you seem to believe in open ended discussion and a solution to every problem.

Like I said... circular argument. Like most arguments on these forums between fanboys and realists. Hence why I dont bother posting!

Edited September 29, 2011 by Calmdown

[Lucidicide]

The Dreamer can not pick all his models up from one side of the board and deposit them on the other in one activation.

If the models are on the table they can not be moved more than 12", and that requires the dreamer to be exactly 6" away from the model.

You largely only need to be worried about being bombed by the models that are not on the table at the start of the turn.

Until the dreamer has activated each turn you dont know what will be on the board or off the board at the beginning of next turn though.

Good points.

But you are certainly one to jump to conclussions as you have proven over and over again accross the forums (ex: remember the Book 3 resser model thread?). I doubt you've even played many games with the Dreamer and haven't even unraveled him fully.

Let's limit the personal attacks. Although this isn't a terrible one, it never helps the argument.

The simple fact that it takes this level of input, this level of counter tactics and this level of dedicated thinking to even attempt to compete with the Dreamer should be evidence enough that he is in an undesirable state for the health of the game.

I suppose that depends what you think about when you think about game health. I remember a long time ago a lot of discussions about Sonnia being weak or even Pandora being weak... and almost no one would make those claims now.

You may be right that this level of counter-tactics makes the Dreamer unbalanced, but I don't think it's necessarily the case. For example, Book 4 could have more Masters like the Dreamer, where it takes a similar style to beat him. It's possible that the problem isn't with the Dreamer, it's with being used to a certain style of play that doesn't work against the Dreamer. Right now, you only need to learn that style to defeat the Dreamer, but that could change.

I agree that might not be an ideal situation, particularly for newer players, but it's also not one that means unbalanced.

In any case, you're convinced that everything is fine. I'm not. Who honestly cares? People are entitled to their own opinions, and people play on different levels that obviates game balance anyway. The game is story and character driven, not tournament driven, and that's the way it is. Wyrd have neither the experience, ability or inclination to change that. Malifaux is in a good state for fun play right now when players can avoid playing with/against masters they dont enjoy, and that's where the game firmly belongs.

Well, in answer to your rhetorical question: Everyone posting on this thread cares. But let's leave personal attacks out of this, and I'm counting Wyrd as a person in this case.

[karn987]

@Lucidicide: you are right, my appolagies. That was uncalled for.

I’m going to ignore the broken/overpowered discussion.

Lots of text! Link should work back to the original post.

Can anyone think of anything they would add to the list Adran posted? I'm sure some of these Masters have some other options to countering the Alp bomb. Just trying to make a comprehensive list of this.

Edited September 29, 2011 by karn987

[Hatchethead]

Like I said... circular argument. Like most arguments on any forums between fanboys and realists. Hence why I dont bother posting!

Fixed that for you.

If there's one thing that annoys me about these discussions, it's that they always end up berating the Wyrd forum as some unfathomable internet microcosm where intelligent discussion is impossible due to biases and flawed logic.

Hardly fair. In my experience, that sums up the vast majority of the internet, including pretty much every other game-related forum I belong to.

That is all.

[Lucidicide]

Fixed that for you.

If there's one thing that annoys me about these discussions, it's that they always end up berating the Wyrd forum as some unfathomable internet microcosm where intelligent discussion is impossible due to biases and flawed logic.

Hardly fair. In my experience, that sums up the vast majority of the internet, including pretty much every other game-related forum I belong to.

That is all.

Umm, clearly it is just us. Learn to play forums, n00b.

[Hatchethead]

umm, clearly it is just us. Learn to play forums, n00b.

pwnt.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I locked one thread of this due to mud-slinging and personal attacks.

Please tone it down or I will have to do the same here.

[schristofersen]

uhg... come on...can we please discuss things we may actually be able to come to an agreement on?

Some people think the Dreamer/chompy are fine. Some people don't.

Are there simple changes that would not change the flavor of the crew that would bring the power level into line with the other crews and/or are there ways for the other crews to mitigate the percieved power differential.

We have seen a few of the answers to the last part of the question such as area of effect and crew specifics. Those have been great.

We seem to have identified that the mobility of the crew is the real power imbalance. While other crews have the ability to move large distances, no other crew can move all but one or two models accross the board and onto the opposing crew on the first turn (or basically any turn).

Is this really the real problem. If so is there a fix for it that would have minimal impact upon the crew and allow for most people to feel that the crew is on par with the others?

Would it be possible to add a limitation to "all my friends" such as discarding a card or soulstone for each past the first model or first two models? This seems like a minimal adjustment that would have slight tweek to the power level of the crew, still allow for a "bomb" with a bit more resource managment, and also provide a limiting factor.

opinions on that?

[Lucidicide]

If I were to propose changes, it would be thus:

-Alps Smother ability changed so that you can only get one negative twist from it, as opposed to a ton. This is still very potent, but helps models with a decent Wp still have a decent chance of passing.

-Dreamer's All My Friends trigger requires you to discard a control card for each model after the second. You can still dump your entire crew in one go, but you can't then activate and use up high cards (which you might have been saving up because you only have on model on the table).

Nothing at all changes in gameplay functionality.

[Necromorph]

To add to Adran's list for some other masters:

Kirai- Can warp out of the bomb onto a friendly spirit and pull all of her seishin with her. Killing the bomb is a different story, but DB and Weigh sins is not a bad option, and she does have some (limited) other ranged options.

Hamelin- Irresistable Lure, that's pretty much all you'll need, haha.

[sephiroa]

If I were to propose changes, it would be thus:

-Alps Smother ability changed so that you can only get one negative twist from it, as opposed to a ton. This is still very potent, but helps models with a decent Wp still have a decent chance of passing.

-Dreamer's All My Friends trigger requires you to discard a control card for each model after the second. You can still dump your entire crew in one go, but you can't then activate and use up high cards (which you might have been saving up because you only have on model on the table).

Nothing at all changes in gameplay functionality.

isn't there a rule you can go to a max of 3:-fate or 3 , similar like you can only get 1 +1 fast or -1 slow.

so you could only get 3 on smother, sometimes, you can survive this

[Fetid Strumpet]

Sorry for the delay in posting, work calls got frantic lately.

He has issues, yes. We've all come to agree on that.

See Karn, you and I agree at least on this point but I get the feeling that others don't feel that there is anything wrong at all with the Dreamer. We probably disagree to the total extent of the changes that need to happen, but its nice to know that at least someone who plays him recognizes that there is an issue.

Q, my problem with The Dreamer's across the board strike wasn't limited to the Alp Bomb. I've seen the Dreamer move across the board, and drop 2 Lelus and a Stitched into Melee range of a crew, and I've seen him drop 3 stitched into the middle of a crew during a slaughter match, and then get yanked back into cover in his deployment zone first activation. I'm sorry if you disagree but I really feel that that much total crew mobility is too powerful and should not exist in the game, especially on a master who not only does that, but has automatic access to the best melee monster in the game for free. Other crews that have extreme mobility are often limited by the lethality of those models, not so the Dreamer.

And the reason your positioning counters I feel don't work is because at the end of the day the Dreamer pretty much holds all the cards for how the tempo of the game will go. Sure I agree with you if you set up a fantastic deployment first turn, you might be able to stop a first turn alpha strike that kills every model you have,... but then the Dreamer doesn't have to alpha strike you. He could instead just come in, Pop Chompy, Kill an important model on the outer edge of your formation, and then pop back into cover next to a stitched in one activation and then pass the rest of his turn.

The Dreamer Like Kirai benefits from pseudo-extra time because of how fast an maneuverable they are. They can easily spend the first 4-5 turns of the game doing nothing but focus killing a model a turn because in the last turn or two they can instantly reposition themselves, and some or all of their crew to achieve what ever objectives not kill related that happen to have to do. This isn't true of a slower crew. They have to continually work towards their objectives because it takes them longer to actually get to where they are going. They can't afford to turtle and then make a dash for it on the last turn because if they do, they most likely won't have the movement tricks to get where they are going.

So that is why I don't find any of your pre-game positioning advice practical. Because even if you perfect the best positioning to prevent a Dreamer Alpha Bomb or Melee Strike, or Stitched Bomb, you have to maintain it the entire game. If at any point your formation weakens the Dreamer can just swoop in and drop his crew then. And he can absolutely just keep himself in cover and just venture out to kill 1 model a turn with Chompy because no matter where you go on the board no where is safe from a Chompy strike via the Dreamer Shuffle. That won't even expose the dreamer to danger because a second Daydream sitting next to his Stitched in the deployment zone can instantly zap him back into hiding during the same activation.

So let's assume you are playing Nicodem Q, and the Strat is Shared deliver a message. The Dreamer is sitting in cover in his deployment zone and gets the first action. If Nicodem is anywhere further forward than 2" from your board edge The Dreamer will deliver his message in his first activation before you even get a chance to act, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume Nicodem is positioned in such a perfect way that dropping the third Daydream won't get to you so it will be kept buried. I'll even assume that he is positioned so that Chompy for some reason can't kill him as part of his strike, and that your crew is positioned so an alp bomb or melee alpha strike would fail if tried. So Chompy comes in and kills your most important model on the outskirts of your formation and the Dreamer appears back in cover in his deployment zone sandwiched immediately between a daydream and a stitched. What is your next logical step?

You'll need to maintain your formation all game because the instant your formation breaks and it works for the Dreamer to assault he will. If it doesn't work out to his favor the Dreamer can certainly spend the first 3 turns of the game killing one model a turn one popping back into cover. Nicodem even has a slight advantage in this one because if he wants to keep burning arise for MZ or better undead, but at best you are playing for a tie game and not the win.

Back to what I would do if I were changing him, because of his insane maneuverability the first thing I would do is get rid of the ability that gives him extra stones for nightmares. He needs no extra incentive to take them, and an effective SS cache of 5 is ridiculous. Seamus, Perdita, and Ramos have the lowest SS caches of any master in the game, 2, outside the Outcasts and (which I'm not entirely certain why every one of them has no SS Cache) and in my opinion it is because both Seamus and Peridita have Fast instead of an expert action, and in Ramos' case because he has armor 2.

Can any of you Dreamer supporters look me in the face and honestly say that you really believe the Dreamer needs a higher SS Cache than Seamus or Ramos or Perdita? Frankly if that is the case I'd propose a similar rule be added to all low Cache masters that would give them an extra stone to a max of 5 for each specialty minion they brought in their crew. Family for Peridita, Belles for Seamus, constructs for Ramos.

The second thing I'd tweak is the interaction with the Daydreams. It is because of them that I feel the Dreamer gets his insane powerboost. I totally feel they should still be able to facilitate the swap back and forth between Chompy and the Dreamer, but I don't feel that using them should give the dreamer and chompy even extra movement abilities. What the fix to them is however I don't know.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[Lucidicide]

isn't there a rule you can go to a max of 3:-fate or 3 , similar like you can only get 1 +1 fast or -1 slow.

so you could only get 3 on smother, sometimes, you can survive this

Sure. You could, for example, flip the Red Joker. It's also possible that my Hollow Waif will survive an attack by Lady Justice when I have no hand... it just seems unlikely :-P

But yes, you're right on all counts above. But -3 is way worse than even -2. Honestly, I feel like limiting it to a - flip is a way to easily nerf without really changing anything.