Thoughts on trigger happy/onslaught/chain lure

[robk]

I had a thought on triggers that allowed an additional action to happen(Melee/range strike spell). Not sure if this has been brought up before.

What about stipulating that any action gained through a trigger cannot activate any triggers?

Basically means even if you have a god hand you will only get 1 extra action out of each AP (Which is still pretty good).

Nino can only shoot 4 times at 2 different models in one activation

Lilitu can only cast lure 6 times at 3 different models

Chompy can only have 6 attacks at 3 different models in one activation

Don't know all the other models with similar triggers.

Thoughts?

[Cadilon]

I don't see Trigger Happy as being a problem. You still need to win and have the proper suit. Getting more than one is not all that easy to pull off.

[Calmdown]

Teigger Happy and Overpower dont happen very often in a chain. More often you get to cast 2, maybe 3, in a row depending on your lucky flips/good hand.

Lure chain is just broken because of Nephilim Heart. The problem is infinite automatic repeats, not multi-triggers in general. The solution is to make Nephilim heart cause a no-chain clause, rather than alter these abilities in general.

[Calmdown]

Double post, woops.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Calmdown

[goblyn13]

Trigger happy, Onslaught and Lilitus Double take all are against the same target, you can't change them in the middle.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Lure chain is just broken because of Nephilim Heart. The problem is infinite automatic repeats, not multi-triggers in general. The solution is to make Nephilim heart cause a no-chain clause, rather than alter these abilities in general.

That's gonna have some far reaching implications. I think the easiest way to fix this is to change the Trigger Requirement to MaskCrow or MaskTome.

[Mentat_Canis]

That's gonna have some far reaching implications. I think the easiest way to fix this is to change the Trigger Requirement to MaskCrow or MaskTome.

I would say Mask Tome if you were going to do any of these because Mask Crow is built in.

I really don't feel that any of those need a fix because its what makes someone like Nino and Rasputina. If you want to fix double take the idea to change it to Mask Tome would be fine or make it so you can't cast Lure in combat or trigger double take in combat.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I would say Mask Tome if you were going to do any of these because Mask Crow is built in.

Well there you go.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The trouble with fixing abilities that are shared across the board is that it cuddles those who are not deserving of it. I would be 100% against altering Lure in any way because it would be an unfair change to those models that are currently using Lure as intended. If there is a rules issue that deserves addressing it should be fixed as minimally as possible.

[Jonas Albrecht]

The trouble with fixing abilities that are shared across the board is that it cuddles those who are not deserving of it. I would be 100% against altering Lure in any way because it would be an unfair change to those models that are currently using Lure as intended. If there is a rules issue that deserves addressing it should be fixed as minimally as possible.

Which is why changing the trigger requirements on only the Lilitus is the best option. It solves the problem without affecting Nekima's ability to buff or other models that have the spell.

[Calmdown]

Which is why changing the trigger requirements on only the Lilitus is the best option. It solves the problem without affecting Nekima's ability to buff or other models that have the spell.

Changing the trigger is an inadvertent buff to Lilitu by taking away the most hotly contested suit for Neverborn (masks) as a requirement.

Given that Nephilim heart causes the issue here I'm not sure that changing Double Take is the right way to go.

This is all aetheric anyway, though

[Jonas Albrecht]

Changing the trigger is an inadvertent buff to Lilitu by taking away the most hotly contested suit for Neverborn (masks) as a requirement.

Given that Nephilim heart causes the issue here I'm not sure that changing Double Take is the right way to go.

This is all aetheric anyway, though

The only reason we're discussing Nephilim Heart is due to Double Take on Lilitus. It's not the issue here. It's that Double Take forms a nexus for two abilities to be abused in concert. Change it, and the problem is gone.

[marshimartian]

Changing the extra suit for double take is probably one of the best suggestions I've heard as it fixes the problem without having an adverse effect on other synergies. Or adding to double take"this trigger can't be used while target is in base contact with this model" I say base contact because with lilitu's chain, stopping the trigger in melee completely cuddles the twins, and their bond, lure, kill combo.

As for the other abilities, I think their fine as they are, and have never found any of them to be overpowered

[Hookers]

I'm actually a fan of this. It would affect other triggers as well, like Whirlwind.

The only reason we're discussing Nephilim Heart is due to Double Take on Lilitus. It's not the issue here. It's that Double Take forms a nexus for two abilities to be abused in concert. Change it, and the problem is gone.

It actually still is the issue, because all of the triggers that can loop like this involve a mask. Never played against a nekima with a Convict Gunslinger buddy (i think it requires the black blood shaman as well, or some way to make him a nephilim)? As my friend put it, "It's technically not an infinite combo because you don't have infinite wounds."

Hypothetically you could take killjoy and have infinite onslaught, but that is so much more expensive when all of the combos do the same thing: attack a target until it dies.

And I've heard arguments about "intent" as well. Calling it "intent" doesn't make it balanced. Someone's intent can be wrong. I am far more scared of a Zoraida grow list than I am of the double chain lure "Filth" list. If the intent was to make growing easier, nekima and the shaman's ability to cut themselves for blood accomplishes that. The mask never made it difficult to grow, it was getting blood counters. The mask just makes it automatic. Make a model that gives rezzers a crow to their cast and see what happens. Nicodem OP

Edited August 31, 2011 by Hookers

[Jonas Albrecht]

Hookers, what would you say to a built in stopper for extra strike triggers? Say, after once?

[Jonas Albrecht]

Hypothetically you could take killjoy and have infinite onslaught, but that is so much more expensive when all of the combos do the same thing: attack a target until it dies.

31 vs 26 (vs 20). There are no cheap lists that take advantage of this.

[Q'iq'el]

The mask never made it difficult to grow, it was getting blood counters. The mask just makes it automatic.

As a long-term Lilith player, I must say this doesn't check in practice.

Control Hand is random. Grow is an early game spell (or rather a spell you need to be able to cast early for it to have meaning), when you have less control over your Hand's composition.

Getting the Blood Counter, if you really need it, is very easy. (one transposition + concentrated effort, kill a Desperate Mercenary if you plan for it or even use Blood From Stone if you want it expensive but hassle-free)

Getting high :masks Terror Tots need to Grow is very random. I've seen a Lilith player using Red Joker to get it off, in desperation.

That's why there were no Growth lists to speak of before Nekima. You can't rely on it at all without that extra Mask. Nekima is so good at enabling Growth lists, she actually can do it for other masters than Lilith. Clearly, it the mask which has always been the limiting factor.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Hookers]

Hookers, what would you say to a built in stopper for extra strike triggers? Say, after once?

Isn't that the original suggestion? I'm a fan. Not because of infinite combos per se, but because it makes intuitive sense and also stops the extreme "lucky" sprees that high cb models like viks, killyjoy, and nino can get with it by flipping low masks. When a model activates you should be able to anticipate the number of attacks it can generate. Which is why I don't think infinite lure is that powerful, because when lilitu activates I count on her being able to attack infinitely and play and plan around it. Nino activates I count on a certain number of attacks plus maybe 1 or 2 due to the player saving a high mask for him. The surprise factor of top decking masks that are still high enough to hit is more powerful in my opinion.

Getting high :masks Terror Tots need to Grow is very random. I've seen a Lilith player using Red Joker to get it off, in desperation.

5 is high? You must also play dreamer and be used to the CC 10 and 11 spells with a cast 7 master. He only needs a 3 of masks... lucky

If the CC were higher adding the mask might not make as much of a difference. As it is right now it costs you no resources to grow. A grow list is guaranteed with any starting hand. If you needed say, like a 10, then at least it would cost you something to have two 3 point mature nephilim.

The problem is Ressurectionists were balanced in book 1 around being able to summon. They are slow, low df, low damage output for the most part. Neverborn were not balanced around this. Grow was something that was cool if it happened but you didn't build towards it or count on it, and you didn't need to. You are fast and have tons of min damage 3. Did anyone think that any Neverborn masters were weak in book 1?

The "not real summoning" argument is unpersuasive as well. You are not interacting with your opponent on turn 1 in order to gain more SS worth of models. Rezzers that do that are doing the same. Mcmourning slices people up, Kirai sacs seishin, Nicodem uses a pulse to kill a bunch of dogs, etc. You have to kill your own models to get the resources. It is simply turning lower point models into higher point ones in both cases. The difference is Neverborn can always do it and rezzers are super hand reliant, with only 5 or 6 cards in the deck enabling it.

But she's 13 points! She's a df 4 lilith with irresistible. She hits hard enough and her other abilities more than compensate her in my opinion. Also, she could just be less points if she wasn't worth it. Nephilim heart has already broken the game in enough ways that having to keep track of it going forward does not seem worth it. Neverborn just no longer have any triggers that require masks? But they're Neverborn. It also triggers auto-flay which would be really powerful except that it is so much less powerful than infinitely attacking people that no one ever bothers.

[Q'iq'el]

5 is high? You must also play dreamer and be used to the CC 10 and 11 spells with a cast 7 master. He only needs a 3 of masks... lucky

It's only 5 with her buff. This is a dual buff, true, and may seem like overkill, but you are not guaranteed to get them both at the same time, and for these 13SS she's about making Growth reliable, not situational.

If she spent her (0) pulse giving :masks to something else than Ca or if your Nephilim were outside of the Pulse range, you are not getting the :masks. If she buffs the Ca with extra :masks and then moves, you may end up having to Grow Tots without the boost to their Ca.

Basic Grow is CC14 cast with Ca of 5, so 9+ of :masks to cast it - just 6 cards in the entire deck (including Red Joker).

If you run the "exploitative" growth list with Desp. Mercs to kill and all, you are getting all the buffs. If you play it "normally", you are unlikely to get the same benefit.

Personally I don't think she should be cuddled for what she can do for a DM killing Growth list, because it wastes an entire turn to Grow/Mature the models. If you don't want to waste that first turn, you are not getting full buffs for all of your models, quite likely (you're better off if you can bunch up, but that's not always safe or possible).

This is at least how it works in practice, from my experience. I play Nicodem too and I recon Nicodem would have hard time making a growth list pay for wasting the first turn... there're plenty of masters who'd make them pay very dearly for that though.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Cunning]

Nekima is not great for her cost. She dies far too easily. Taking away the auto lure trigger would make her even worse.

I haven't used her in ages and I don't have much intention to go back to her. Plus the model is awful. How wyrd thought such a thin connection to the base was suitable for such a large model is beyond me.

[magicpockets]

Surely the buff to Lilitus was an intended part of Nekima's mechanic? And at 14ss (iirc) she needs to do something awesome....

[karn987]

Surely the buff to Lilitus was an intended part of Nekima's mechanic? And at 14ss (iirc) she needs to do something awesome....

Exactly. Well, 13ss actually, but still. Thats 20ss for the combo and realistically its more like 27ss because the twins should almost never not be brought in a pair. Nekima herself is not the problem here, she is a good model if a bit underwhelming in some areas. But with this combo, think of what you can do with 20/27 ss with other crews and lists... they are not that far off, the line is very very thin.

If there was one thing I would think could be changed, it would be to make Double Take not triggerable if the target is in melee with the Lilitu. This eliminates the greatest abuse of the combination, keeps it a viable combination, and (most importantly) keeps the models doing what people bought them for.

Edited August 31, 2011 by karn987

[magicpockets]

But with this combo, think of what you can do with 20/27 ss with other crews and lists... they are not that far off, the line is very very thin.

What, like in a Pandora list? Hmmm...

JackDaw 10ss

Doppleganger 8ss

Sorrow 3ss

Sorrow 3ss

Sorrow 3ss

Personally I say bring on Nekima

[Hookers]

Exactly. because the twins should almost never not be brought in a pair

she only loses 1 wd a turn... and you can summon the other one. if you spend the extra seven its on another lilitu not lelu

[Cunning]

she only loses 1 wd a turn... and you can summon the other one. if you spend the extra seven its on another lilitu not lelu

Really? I can't see this being a good idea at all. The twins work best as a pair, sharing healing, campanioning etc. Lilitu may be able to prevent all but one wound per turn but then she can't heal anyone else.

Relying on getting 2 blood counters, a good enough card to get the summon off and a spare nephilim to sacrifice is quite frankly a terrible plan.

[Q'iq'el]

she only loses 1 wd a turn... and you can summon the other one. if you spend the extra seven its on another lilitu not lelu

This is exactly the sort of over-simplification people love to commit when they criticize the power level of the models they don't play with.

In reality, there's a lot going on and this ability to recover lost wounds and summon Lelu comes at a high price.

1. Timing

Lilitu loses 3 Wd at the end of the 1st Turn, Resolving Effects. She can heal 2 of those, but then she isn't healing anyone else and Neverborn have very few heals to begin with.

Lilitu can regenearate 1 more Wd if she's within 6" of Nekima. That's all good and fine, but Nekima is the primary target in the crew - big, easy to hit, relatively easy to kill if you commit to it and taking her out breaks the combo, so it's a priority.

2. Cost of summoning Lelu - you need to take at least a Tot (3SS), you need 2 Blood Counters and you have to cast a CC18 spell with her Ca of 6 (no benefits here from Nekima). Any suit will do, but that is still only 7 cards in the deck (including the Joker) and you take them away from cheating damage, Lure flips etc.

So the great plan to bring OP combo at 20SS results in bringing it at 23SS, spending AP, Blood Counters and top-notch card, not to mention Lelu arrives Slow, on saving 4SS. Worth it? Really OP?

[and for the sake of disclosure, I'd definitely go through that trouble, if I wanted to experiment with Nekima+Lilitu in a low SS game. It's just that it is an inferior route you take if you have to]

Edited August 31, 2011 by Q'iq'el