No Respect for Non-Colette Masters

[Uncle]

True, however people are often wrong. Actually playing the force personally helps dispel myths and forces people to face their incorrect assumptions.

Actually, people are right far more often than they are wrong, but they have a bit of a tendency to exaggerate.

A sufficiently intelligent person can deduce the true power of a force just by theorycraft. I don't think we have anyone here that qualifies, so we need to rely on experience and evidence to bulk it out.

Nice underhanded insult to everyone on the boards. There is no such thing as "theorycraft"--it, like "fluff," are denigrating terms for things certain players do not appreciate. Reading the rulebook can certainly lead one to understand how to use models and which ones are better than others.

Marcus is not one of those "better than the others" models. He has potential, but with three books, he remains uncompetitive. Maybe Book 4 will help.

[Dolomyte]

Actually, people are right far more often than they are wrong, but they have a bit of a tendency to exaggerate.

Nice underhanded insult to everyone on the boards. There is no such thing as "theorycraft"--it, like "fluff," are denigrating terms for things certain players do not appreciate. Reading the rulebook can certainly lead one to understand how to use models and which ones are better than others.

Marcus is not one of those "better than the others" models. He has potential, but with three books, he remains uncompetitive. Maybe Book 4 will help.

It's a fact of life that certain people are better then others at things. I can't hit a 90mph fastball for example. It's easy to label something in a negative way when your not smart enough to understand it

(That was overhanded shot at people who are quick to cry theorycraft and demand MOAR data.)

[pharaoh]

Ramos isn't bad at all if you don't mind proxying models. Kaeris, gunsmiths, and even a miner greatly improve him. Granted I give you outside of Joss his book 1 stuff is crap. But alot of the book 2 stuff will greatly help him out once it gets released (heh).

Come now, spider swarms are very good, they're pricey, true, but they still do a load of damage, they're survivable, and they explode. What's not to love?

And since the Steamborg cloud got obscuring, then he's basically carrying 'the fog' around with him and can effectively screen your entire crew from shooting whilst you advance up.

As far as Electrical fire is concerned, I've tried playing Ramos as an offensive caster, and it's tough, but with CA 8 and casting expert, he can do a lot of damage on pretty much anything except Perdita and Lilith. As someone said, with Ramos you need to construct your list with care - the Friekorps librarian is a huge help if you're playing this sort of Ramos, and he can still pop out a spider for free if you've got scrap, or an electrical creation if you haven't.

Oh, that's my one real problem with Ramos' book one minions, who decided that making the electrical creation unique was a good idea????

I'm kind of ranting here, and i don't mean to, I'm not saying that because he's not awful, he's top tier, or even close, he's not. He's great at mid-tier games, and he's really characterful, he's just been left behind a bit by the advances of rising powers, where Neverborn in particular came away with some crazy good minions.

[Brandu]

Marcus is great, Marcus is wonderful. Now, if you can just convince everyone I'm playing against in a tourney to play Marcus...

-Brandu

The first 2 sentences above, were sarcasm folks.

The only thing uglier than Marcus' Avatar is the artwork for Marcus' Avatar.

And it's still: Tier Marcus.

[Malindle]

Can Ramos get his Avatar off on round 2? In another thread some Henchmen were going over the rule for his first Manifestation requirement. Does 1 spider summon plus 1 Electrical Creation allow an (all) manifest on turn 2?

[demkoenig]

Hey guys,

I don't currently play Arcanists, but I've played against Arcanists more than anything else and I have to say, in my experience, all of the Arcanist masters, when chosen for the strategy with wise schemes and intelligent card/stone control, can be very successful.

Granted, I'm still under 50 games and I only play Guild and Rezzers, you may take my opinion for what its worth.

On a side note, I think it is humorous how incredibly seriously some people take balance in this game. Part of the game is to have fun, and granted broken toys aren't fun, challenges tend to be, even if they're impossible to solve. (Though Whirling Vikkies still irks me)

I mean, coming from Starcraft II, which boils down to APM and efficiency, I think the Wyrd guys do a solid job of balancing FUN and BALANCE.

[brdparker]

I think the Wyrd guys do a solid job of balancing FUN and BALANCE.

Agreed; in fact, I find this game to be one of the most balanced games I have ever played (across factions and across masters). You're finding it difficult to complete a certain scheme? Don't take that scheme. You're finding it difficult to take a certain strat? Reflip. Or... suck it up and enjoy the game anyway. Maybe focus on depriving the opponent of his/her strat.

For my own purposes, until recently (when I picked up Nico and a few scraggling models to fill him out for the sake of teaching people the game), my only crew was Marcus. This is also my first minis game. I lost the first dozen or so games I played with him. I attribute a large percentage of this to being new to the game.

Fast forward a bit... I am currently on a 10-game winning streak, and with such models as Rogue Necromancy, Raptors, Blessed of December, and MacTavish, I forsee my w:l ratio sky-rocketting.

My two-cents

Edited September 2, 2011 by brdparker
filled out the reply a bit.

[JuJubee]

Mentat I'm not afraid of any of your crews. However, that being said i never expected the damage output from Raspy. So far i would say all the masters are viable as long as you understand their individual tactics. On that not when playing against them you also have to understand how to beat them. Collette just has the ability to get ner points fast.

[Mentat_Canis]

Ya I just wanted to know why the hate on the others but I had another fun game with Marcus tonight it was vs the Criid who is never fun to see on the other side when you are an anarchist player. So I had marcus hit her with the stick and a group of catfishmen ripped her face off. I love my Marcus and Raspy I think I might have to get Ramos soon. JuJubee you must fear the the biting chill.

[GamerGaeth]

tonight it was vs the Criid who is never fun to see on the other side when you are an anarchist player

Damn gubment, always putting the common man down!

[Rathnard]

I don't see overpowered and weak. I see handicaps and challenges. :smugpuppet1

I won't deny that Marcus is a harder Master to use well than most others. He lacks the overt strengths of most other Masters and it can be difficult to identify the best way to use him from game to game.

But I picked Marcus because I like a challenge. I'd rather wrestle with a Master everyone puts down than have an easy ride with a Master everyone already knows is great.

So take your Colletes. Take your Hamelins and your Dreamers, your Pandora's and your Perditas. Because when I beat these so-called "top-tier" Masters with my Marcus crew, those wins are all the sweeter.

[ratch]

I don't see overpowered and weak. I see handicaps and challenges. :smugpuppet1

I won't deny that Marcus is a harder Master to use well than most others. He lacks the overt strengths of most other Masters and it can be difficult to identify the best way to use him from game to game.

But I picked Marcus because I like a challenge. I'd rather wrestle with a Master everyone puts down than have an easy ride with a Master everyone already knows is great.

So take your Colletes. Take your Hamelins and your Dreamers, your Pandora's and your Perditas. Because when I beat these so-called "top-tier" Masters with my Marcus crew, those wins are all the sweeter.

Nuff said =] lol however i run Ramos and i am not near the point of beating people but i have had suprises. for instance Getting the Assassination VS collette with a red joker in my hand. he didn't have the Tome to swap with a Showgirl and i cheated the Red Joker on the Damage. i was going to do it with the Borg but the Borg died first. so ramos Electrical Fired her to death, literally lol.

i am excited for the new models coming out. my list will still be Fluffy, but have some "Steam" so-to-speak.

[Drake]

Nuff said =] lol however i run Ramos and i am not near the point of beating people but i have had suprises. for instance Getting the Assassination VS collette with a red joker in my hand. he didn't have the Tome to swap with a Showgirl and i cheated the Red Joker on the Damage. i was going to do it with the Borg but the Borg died first. so ramos Electrical Fired her to death, literally lol.

Just bear in mind, even without a Tome, Colette is difficult to kill, as she can simply use her Slow to Die action to burn a SoulStone and heal. Your Red Joker is then effectively wasted. She only has 6 wounds, she will go down to 0 regardless of excess wounds caused, then heal back up whatever she flips for the healing flip. Hey presto she is still alive.

I personally wouldnt waste a Red Joker against Colette, not when she only has 6 wounds even at full health anyway.

Also, I wouldnt have taken Assasination against her. Preference mostly, but she is notoriously difficult to kill...having played around 30 games with her against some strong opponents, my Colette has only ever been killed the once..

[Odin1981]

I'll ditto what drake just said.The thing that makes her a beast is the slow to die/heal flip combo on top of her being able to potentially making 3-4 stones a turn (using react 0).

The only thing currently that can break the slow chain up is a model (preferably with use ss) that has a paraylize action but you have ss at a + and presumably would have a high card in hand as well (9+) to help up your total on defense/wp to a 25+ total.

[Drake]

In fact, I would expect to hit around the 30+ mark for total score to defend against anything that could potentially remove Colette from the game (12 or 13 in hand to cheat in, plus 11 or more with the ss)

Also worth adding, anything that Sacrifices it's target or Headshot effects also a serious threat to Colette, as they bypass the regular Dg/Wd causing effects, and simply kill/sacrifice the target instead.

[Calmdown]

So take your Colletes. Take your Hamelins and your Dreamers, your Pandora's and your Perditas.

I love when people include bad masters in a list of top tier stuff

[Odin1981]

In fact, I would expect to hit around the 30+ mark for total score to defend against anything that could potentially remove Colette from the game (12 or 13 in hand to cheat in, plus 11 or more with the ss)

Also worth adding, anything that Sacrifices it's target or Headshot effects also a serious threat to Colette, as they bypass the regular Dg/Wd causing effects, and simply kill/sacrifice the target instead.

I would really love for a ss + to be an average 11 or better but realistically you can only expect around a 9 on average granted holding a 9+ is probably a little low but for me anything with a para/with ss use is cory duet chain paralize target #1 to me atleast in most games I play. Granted I run a combat colette crew so my style might differ from yours.

[Drake]

I would really love for a ss + to be an average 11 or better but realistically you can only expect around a 9 on average granted holding a 9+ is probably a little low but for me anything with a para/with ss use is cory duet chain paralize target #1 to me atleast in most games I play. Granted I run a combat colette crew so my style might differ from yours.

I may be somewhat fortunate, but I do always end up with atleast 1 spare high card for defence, after having good value :tomes and :masks for my triggers... but if I dont see atleast a 10 flipped on my + ss flip for defence, im disappointed..

As for Cory and Paralyse, totally agree with you Odin, and if you need it, you got your Cassandra who can use that spell too..switch in your performer with Colette for lots of Poison fun! Getting Performers to use their poison ability isnt that hard if your intending on doing it...and it can completely destroy enemy models...not that ive needed that tactic yet...

[swordsman82]

I really love playing my colette crew for pure astectic reasons. Having a crew of western show girls is awesome. Her speed really helps with being able to complete your schemes.

For pure raw stop I usually go with Raspy. She can kill most anything in the game with little trouble (atleast i haven't come across anything that has with stood her assault). I think Raspy actually does much better in kill strats and schemes.

I enjoy playing Raspy and in no way way don't view has being anything but Top Teir.

I haven't player with Ramos or Marcus, but am looking into Marcus cause i have his Avatar already. He looks to have a steep learning curve but is powerful none the less.

[Adran]

I may be somewhat fortunate, but I do always end up with atleast 1 spare high card for defence, after having good value :tomes and :masks for my triggers... but if I dont see atleast a 10 flipped on my + ss flip for defence, im disappointed..

Its alright for some. I expect 4+ on single flips, and 8 on flips.

Mind you I also rarely seem to get good :masks and :tomes in my hand.

Probabilities are tricky to work out in this game (Every single flip has diffenrent chance depending on what s already been) but the two cards should average 14.