Jonas Albrecht Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) Even their models meant to fight (Coryphee and Cassandra) can't go toe to toe with even a moderately dangerous model like a Guild Captain let alone Ryle, Francisco ect. And they don't have willpower enough to save themselves from Obey and Pine Box. Cassandra and Coryphee should never go toe-to-toe with models. Their strengths are in hit and run attacks and, when played as such, make a mockery of everything on that list. The rest of your post is a bit baffling. You are overestimating the ease in which Showgirls are disabled. Edited August 20, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamerGaeth Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Good point- maybe she would be worth it with a Pandora playstyle. 8 points for that just sounds kinda steep though, considering what Neverborn already have access to. Keep in mind, you're also getting a Mannequin for those points. They can be surprisingly useful at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fog Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Even their models meant to fight (Coryphee and Cassandra) can't go toe to toe with even a moderately dangerous model like a Guild Captain let alone Ryle, Francisco ect. And they don't have willpower enough to save themselves from Obey and Pine Box. I'm curious how a guard captain could hope to fight Cassandra, let alone a duet. As she's closing, you're looking at a to your attack and damage against a unit who can, if needed, use soulstones. In melee, she's got a 7 Cb against your 4 DF, upwards of three attacks with the potential to move or cast a spell after each of them, and can easily be back around a corner by the time you activate. Ryle has a bit more oomph thanks to Socially Repressed combined with Ranged Expert, but using terrain to your advantage an solve that problem quick... And the coryphee is twice as hard to kill--DF 7/WP 6 with to all Df and Resist plus soulstones on top of that... And the element of speed, while all well and good, seems to be equaled by combinations of Abruela+perdita+totem for Obey-a-thons of movement or Lucius issuing command and Lawyer eliminating the ability for showgirls to target each other. Obey-a-thons require three decent masks in hand. The lawyer needs a 9+ to cast Prosecute and will have trouble succeeding against anything on the team outside of performers. The other issue is Eldar Syndrome. Weak single units/models are buffed beyond their regular use by ability/spell chains. But when these key elements (which are themselves rather fragile) are taken out of the game you are left with models that cost more than they rightly should and do less then they rightly should. There... isn't really anything of the sort going on. Colette's mobility tricks require showgirls on field but there isn't any buffing going on (beyond a +2 Wp aura). There aren't any silly chains that need breaking. Killing a mannequin (who reduces all damage by 5) requires a dedicated effort. Force Ms Dubois to use up soul stones and she gets pretty tame. Obviously, as just about everything she does requires a soulstone. That said, there have been turns I've generated four soulstones with her. If you're using doves carefully to generate activation advantage it's not terribly difficult for her to jump in late in the turn, finish off a few models and fill her sack. Not saying they are a bad crew, they do fine. But in my opinion, without a secondary threat to occupy the enemy Showgirls are just waiting to walk into a shooting gallery. Definitely... unless you're playing with the suggested amount of terrain, in which case your opponent will need to spend some time maneuvering instead of just opening fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darg Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I have a question for the experienced showgirl players. From what I can see Collette lists seem to be quite static compared to other masters. So to what extent do you tailor your lists to your opponent and strategy/schemes? I've seen some people talk about Johan and Gunsmiths but is there much else out there you swear by? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinistercats Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Seconded- would love to hear more about this. Virtually EVERY crew list for Colette I've seen is the 3 C's (Coryphee, Cassie, Colette) and the birds with Performers and Mannies to taste. And at 35 SS to boot. Now I have all of that so it's not that big a problem. My point is it seems to be a pretty static list despite the actual Scenario and / or Scheme... Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fog Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I've run with Johan to babysit a Supply Wagon before, but honestly he kind of felt like dead points. Everything else was so far downfield running amok that my opponent was too busy to try to stop my wagon. I've considered Joss before but never used him. The strange part is that I find mannequins a far more essential part of the team than performers and if I had a way to bring a mannequin or two without the performer I'd definitely give it a try. In a few weeks I've got a 25ss tournament with the strategies determined ahead of time and I'm considering bringing Colette with some SPA swarms for the Escape and Survive round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Playing Colette is a lot like playing Kirai, or Hoffmans, in that if you are playing them, you're doing so to utilize their subtype. All you need is your Showgirl set. If you want to spice it up, experiment away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Colette plays normally best with showgirls imo. At 25ss I'd consider convict/johan/gunsmiths but thats only because I personally want more than cory cass and colette for that point total (not that those 4 are bad but I'd want 5-6 models excluding totems for schemes/strats). Combat colette crews are all about iniative and activation order. I normally play a combat style colette crew. The thing about it is your most important fights are going to be for initiative and activating the duet first to get their defense up. The key I have found is the duet and cassandra "do things", colette becomes a "ss factory", and the performer/angelica is the model that skirts by doing strats/schemes. For colette to play aggresively the duet outside of turn 1 will go first. Use ss, sublime (the most important 0), and sword dance. Then move (hopefully turn one you positioned them in a way to walk and swing on turn 2) sword dance swing on X (model you don't want to deal with that does not have use ss. Trigger the - to duels via in built mask. 1 general ap blinding use ss to get more than likely 6 above their total just figure 19 above their wp stat. Cheat severe to paralize trigger 4" push and walk/dance to something else to give them a -. Cass activates next (0) southern charm (the zero that gives her "tanking ability minus against paired things with use ss 1 gen ap's dance partner to go to base with duet or switch with duet. 2nd ap's a melee blast spell (forgot name but the 3/3/5 one) spend ss to get to 6 or higher to cheat severe and blast the thing for 5 plus hopefully 1-2 weaker minions with the templates. Now I know some people might say why are you activating your good models first? Well I answer with this both models will present huge bulls eyes on themselves and normally distract the large part of a crew your against (atleast their offensive parts). Also you have use ss on these models (cory after they activate) so even if the opponent drops their big #'s in their hand to defend you have ss to get above them plus your high cards in hand (turning your stuff proactive while their high stuff becomes reactive). Also most crews (outside of tournament lists generally only have around 3 target priorities to kill outside of their master) if you can kill 2 on 2nd turn you have stuffed their damage capability. For the player that loses to ortega's I'll give you this advice your "big three" laugh all over the guild dead zone of 10". They (ortegas) all but fransico and perdita suck at combat. And the duet, cass, and colette have movement or movement actions (dance partner, illusionist) to close the gap get stuck in and blast away on their models. Try to have the duet paralize/kill nino first then make a run at santiago/fransico they are normally close together. Colette should mainly be making alot of ss but once the oppurtunity presents itself mannequin act the hell out of papa loco so he can't bomb a clumped up portion of your crew (or just stay somewhat spread out so he can only hit 1 dude). Also don't forget you can companion alpha as well say cory cass and colette are each within 6" of a mannequin companion up and burst them down. Also assuming you play at 35ss if you take 2 doves the big three and a performer/manne you should all but guarantee outactivate the ortega crew unless its just dita and a whole bunch of cheap models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Very solid advice! Colette should mainly be making alot of ss but once the oppurtunity presents itself mannequin act the hell out of papa loco so he can't bomb a clumped up portion of your crew (or just stay somewhat spread out so he can only hit 1 dude). Just a note here, that the "somewhat spread out" means with 13" between all your models... which is not really possible. So yeah, don't try to do that, it'll completely mess your whole game. Just try to avoid clumping and neutralize Papa as soon as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentat_Canis Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Great advise so far in this thread. Some other pointers with Cassy if you have a target alone or you need something dead Blond act is very powerful because she can get 4 attacks a turn with potential blasts. One thing that most new players also miss is that if you have a performer who might die soon get her to within 3-4 inches of either the duet or cassy after they have activated because a southern charmed blond acted cassy in combat is scary as hell, and a second action for the duet is also just as silly. Colette is also a combat monster and our only way to deal with armor which hoses this crew. She gets into the fray turn 3-4 depending on what is happening and if you play with her right you should be able to stop making soulstones from cards as you should start making them from discharge soulstone and magicians duel. The box set takes a long time to really get the most out of because they are quick to die when played wrong. If you are going to do demo games to get people into the game I would recommend not using Colette because it can confuse people with all of the special abilities you are using and how you get to have more soulstones. It can turn people away from the game same as I would say don't teach with Pandora, The Dreamer, or maybe even Kairi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I left a few things out in the above post however after I write a post on "how guild take on neverborne", my next in depth painfully long post of advice will be on "CCC" or combat colette crew so just be patient and pray to the gods my insomnia kicks in alot this week (screw iraq and afghanistan deployments) and it might just mysteriously appear quicker than you think but i'm off to play mali tonight at one of my local gamestores so probably won't happen till wensday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jty3 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Looking forward to it Odin1981. Just finished painting my Colette crew and have my first game on Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fog Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I like to throw Colette in my opponents faces. I tabled a Lilith team turn 2 because they weren't expecting me to come at them face first. Cassie and the duet tore apart their mature neph, I turned Nekima into a mannequin and doves tore Lilith into bits. I wouldn't suggest relying on that kind of performance, but don't think for a second Showgirls can't kill important targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Probably has been said already, but a Performer is just not just a minion of its own. It is a Showgirl and as such it provides a subject for Colette abilities. It is one more "waypoint" on the field for her movement tricks. As a Showgirl, the Performer can use Doves as Soulstones. That makes the cost of its spells much less of an issue. 7+:masks isn't all that hard to do when you can take any mask and then add a Dove-stone to the total. And just see all the outcry at Lure related tactics the other factions can pull off. Isn't Siren's Call in the same ballpark? (sure, it doesn't kill, but Paralyze is one of the most powerful effects in the game as well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Sirens Call doesn't have a double take trigger bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Sirens Call doesn't have a double take trigger bro. LOL. Even without Double Take, Lure is a powerful spell. It's always been. And Paralyze on the end is better than a mere strike too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) Oh $$$$$$$$e didn't know you were on. The "main" problem I see with lure (not the belle ability per say) is that the double take can be combinationally (is that even a word lol I've been drinking "a little since") my games were over can't be set up to "conditionally" set up to proc as long as you don't have 30% percent of the cards in your deck flipped and none higher in your hand. If by chance your of the female persuation I don't mean to demean you by assuming your male. Edited August 23, 2011 by Odin1981 pc ness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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