Thoughts on Kidnap

[Allidor]

Hello fellow Neverborn. I came across this thread in the Resurrectionist forums today:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22084

I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on Kidnap: Is it broken? How often do you use it? Do you tend to use it more with armies that sacrifice their own models? Etc.

All thoughts/comments are welcome.

[marshimartian]

I kidnap seishins like a hobo kidnaps whiskey :-)

[Ratty]

I had a game vs Pandora where I didn't sacrifice a single Seishin. That really gave the Neverborn player a shock.. Not as much as wiping everything that wasn't Pandora off the board by turn 3. But it proves that if you play smart you can run Kirai against Neverborn without giving them Kidnap. Let Ikiryo do the leg work not your other summons.

If I know I'm going to be playing Neverborn, I'm always tempted to only start with 3 seishin and then when I gain seishin just cycle the extra 2 seishin all game and never touch the others unless I really have to.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Ratty

[AdrianMills]

I don't think i have ever used it. I have tendency to take reclaim malifaux if i want easy VP. but as with everything depends what Strategies are drawn.

[magicpockets]

Kidnap against two coryphee - oh, you just made them into a duet? Points for me then

[micahwc]

I use it against Seishin as well, it is usually really helpful as a psychological weapon.

[Iamwyrd]

I luuuuuuuuv kidnap. Lol. Its a very good scheme, almost an auto choose against some crews as they drop their own models like flies. But nevertheless, whenever I play neverborn I take it. Its just that good. Broken? No... Unbalanced? Possibly, but then again, Hamelin is his own scheme. Lol

[KoreyMalifaux]

I use it sparingly depending on the crew my opponent is running. If they cheese it up, I'm all for kidnap. I'm more likely to announce grudge or kill protegee.

[Ratty]

I do wonder a bit why it's 2VPs without declaring though. I would be much happier if it was 1VP, +1VP if declared.

[Soundwave]

There are certain schemes that are way easier than others, in certain situations, but I think that kidnap is the only one that "autowins". At least versus kirai or McM.

[Ratty]

As I said it's not an autowin vs Kirai. But it does change your playstyle.

[Q'iq'el]

As I said it's not an autowin vs Kirai. But it does change your playstyle.

And isn't it what it's there for?

Even if the Neverborn player doesn't take Kidnap, as long as he doesn't announce one of his Schemes, you have to account for the possibility of Kidnap.

I think that is also why the player can't announce it. Its purpose is not to make the Neverborn player play to achieve the objective (it's almost automatic anyway), but to keep the opponent in uncertainty and to stop him from sacrificing own models regardless of what schemes you really have.

It's a very Neverborn scheme. It's more about messing up with the opponent head than about achieving the objective directly.

And if the opponent plays to avoid it, he also stops doing exactly the thing Neverborn have some problem with - summoning a horde of cheap models from early sacrifices. This is the balancing factor I've mentioned in the previous thread.

[Drifter]

I see kidnap used regularly her and that for a good reason. It might be the easiest scenario (at least against certain crews) and I think it might give a VP to much, as it is more often and more easy to fulfill than a lot of other scenarios which only get you 1 or 2 VP...

[Ratty]

The trick is to completely mess it up for the Neverborn player 2 or 3 times. As soon as it's not an autowin they start to have second thoughts about it.

[Guy in Suit]

It's too easy. I will probably make it 'announced-only' at the next tourney. Every NB player picked it and got full VP's for it at my last event.

[Hookers]

It's too easy. I will probably make it 'announced-only' at the next tourney. Every NB player picked it and got full VP's for it at my last event.

only once right?

if not you should try making schemes unique throughout the day, meaning you can only take each one once for the tournament.

[Ratty]

only once right?

if not you should try making schemes unique throughout the day, meaning you can only take each one once for the tournament.

yeah only being able to take it once really stops it being misused. You will save it in case you get chosen against McM or Kirai. Which means you are very likely to use it in the last game against a sub-optimal opponent.

[Drake]

yeah only being able to take it once really stops it being misused. You will save it in case you get chosen against McM or Kirai. Which means you are very likely to use it in the last game against a sub-optimal opponent.

Or if they come up against Ramos or Colette, with all their spiders and the Coryphee/doves :disappoin

[Ratty]

only once right?

if not you should try making schemes unique throughout the day, meaning you can only take each one once for the tournament.

Or if they come up against Ramos or Colette, with all their spiders and the Coryphee/doves :disappoin

Then they accept that you get 2VPs for sabotage and they get 2VPs for Kidnap. Not a big deal.

[micahwc]

I don't think Kidnap is any cheesier than Power Ritual from a Colette player using a Coryphee Duet.

[Guy in Suit]

only once right?

if not you should try making schemes unique throughout the day, meaning you can only take each one once for the tournament.

Yes, only once - but still - it was the only scheme that EVERYONE succeeded in.

[rainborg]

I enjoy using kidnap in my games but lately since most of the people i play against figure that im going to use it. I just switch to another scheme >

just to throw them off.

:dreamer

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Kidnap like a couple of other schemes may be easy to get again lists that are designed to throw away models, but it becomes more difficult against elite crews.

Anyone use it against the Ortegas?

But I still believe players need to switch up their schemes to keep from becoming predictable. Keep your opponent guessing and on their toes.

I love using schemes as a psychological weapon. Someone brings a melee beast that loves being on the frontline and I announce kill protege or grudge and watch my opponent try and decide if he is going to give me the 2pts by charging in. My opponent gets treasure hunt so I will declare holdout.(Going to protect the treasure carrier or are you going to stop me from getting 2 easy points?)

The schemes should be catered to the strategy, terrain, and faction you are playing against. And if you know an opponent plays the same list consistently choose a scheme based on that. Using the same scheme over and over is fine for beginners but as your experience grows so should your selection of schemes.

[Ratty]

Agreed don't get stuck in a rut with Schemes. I know a lot of people take Unannounced Hold Out for an easy 1VP (I would never do this as I'm a fierce and proud rodent warrior and almost always announce, why limit your maximum VPs just because your scaredy cat (see cat's are so known for their cowardice there is even a common phrase immortalising it)). But I recently saw someone take it in a Shared Turf War (Where your opponents objective is to get into your deployment zone)... In other words don't get stuck in a rut and always choose the same schemes.

[notmikehill]

Normally I try to pick schemes based on my strategy and my opponents strategy. If for example the opponent flips slaughter and I flip destroy the evidence I would pick bodyguard (to keep him from maximizing his VP) and also pick breakthrough (seeing as how I'd need to be in his deployment zone to grab an evidence counter)