Bete Noire

[Masque]

I'm going to be playing my first games both with and against Bete soon since a friend and I have both recently hired her on. I'm a little unclear on a few of her rules so I'm looking for some help.

1. Can she use Drawn To Death to escape from a Pine Box or Disappearing Act?

2. Feed on Death is worded insanely. As written it seems Feed on Death itself goes away at the Start Closing Phase if Bete happens to be in play and thus she'll never gain Fast again. As long as she keeps getting Buried before the Start Closing Phase though she keeps the ability and can keep gaining Fast.

3. If a Living model is Killed and Bete uses Drawn to Death to enter play does she immediately gain Fast from Feed on Death?

4. If Bete has one of her Depraved Tactics and is then Buried she will still have it if she is Drawn to Death next turn. Can she then gain another Depraved Tactic or will this only change which she has active?

5. One with the Night allows Bete to be Drawn to Death next turn but nothing about it seems to prevent her from being Drawn to Death this turn. Is there supposed to be a limitation here rather than an allowance?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree. I respect Ratty and Weird's rulings, but this one had me confused as the rules manual clearly states that spells with the same name do not stack. I re-looked through the manual and I couldn't find anywhere in the book that if a spell can give different named effects that the effect's name changes the name of the spell. This may have been the intent of the designer's and it might have been overlooked in the compilation of the RM, but it still has me confused. Is there a page number for the relevant rule I'm obviously missing, or is this ruling merely a clarification of original intent?

Anyways, that you both Ratty and Weird for giving a clear answer to the original posters question. It is very nice to have company reps who are active in trying to help clear up rules issues. It is very much appreciated even if my rotting brains don't always understand it. :proud:

[Zee]

Here's how to look at this:

A Rotten Belle casts Undress at a target. That model receives -2 Df until the Start Closing Phase.

This means, any further attempts to Undress the model will have no further effect on the target, as it has the effect: Undress.

Bete gains different effects from her spell, as was stated by the RMs earlier. One gets Sever Spine, one gets Groin Strike, the 2 can co-exist.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Thank you for an additional attempt to clarify Zee. I re-read some of Ratty's posts and from what I can understand, the designers intent is that if a spell has the capability to apply multiple different effects with different names, the fact that each effect has a different name IS an example of:

"unless indicated otherwise in their descriptions.".

I can totally accept the Marshall's clarification on this issue. Could this issue be updated in the new FAQ if one is being complied?

[sephiroa]

Thank you for an additional attempt to clarify Zee. I re-read some of Ratty's posts and from what I can understand, the designers intent is that if a spell has the capability to apply multiple different effects with different names, the fact that each effect has a different name IS an example of:

"unless indicated otherwise in their descriptions.".

I can totally accept the Marshall's clarification on this issue. Could this issue be updated in the new FAQ if one is being complied?

jeppa as the spells itself says; receives one of the following effects, meaning, 1 spell has 3 effects, and since we are talking about stacking effects and not spells the effect is from a spell, but the manual talks about stacking of effects with the same name from ability or spell but they are stil talking about the effects.

and since with depraved tactics, you have 3 effects.

sometimes the rules are easy to understand, but we have to think a bit ^^

[CubertFarnsworth]

thank you for an additional attempt to clarify zee. I re-read some of ratty's posts and from what i can understand, the designers intent is that if a spell has the capability to apply multiple different effects with different names, the fact that each effect has a different name is an example of:

"unless indicated otherwise in their descriptions.".

I can totally accept the marshall's clarification on this issue. Could this issue be updated in the new faq if one is being complied?

new faq????

:firedevil IT BEGINS AGAIN!! :clap:

[Masque]

Any chance of some help on the other questions from my original post?

[LordFett]

Any chance of some help on the other questions from my original post?

Which questions haven't been answered? I read all four pages and thought they were all answered.

[Masque]

All the questions did get answered, but for some, the people answering the questions either disagreed with each other or seemed unsure of their answers. Can we get a Rules Marshall to sort these out?

[Headcase2]

Ratty's a Rules Marshal, and he's posted already.

[Masque]

Ratty's a Rules Marshal, and he's posted already.

So has Sketch, but they only concerned themselves with question number 4 out of 5. I'd appreciate it if the other points could get some attention too.

[Masque]

I hate bumping for the sake of bumping, but is there any chance this topic could get a little love?

[Stargazer]

I'm going to be playing my first games both with and against Bete soon since a friend and I have both recently hired her on. I'm a little unclear on a few of her rules so I'm looking for some help.

1. Can she use Drawn To Death to escape from a Pine Box or Disappearing Act?

2. Feed on Death is worded insanely. As written it seems Feed on Death itself goes away at the Start Closing Phase if Bete happens to be in play and thus she'll never gain Fast again. As long as she keeps getting Buried before the Start Closing Phase though she keeps the ability and can keep gaining Fast.

3. If a Living model is Killed and Bete uses Drawn to Death to enter play does she immediately gain Fast from Feed on Death?

4. If Bete has one of her Depraved Tactics and is then Buried she will still have it if she is Drawn to Death next turn. Can she then gain another Depraved Tactic or will this only change which she has active?

5. One with the Night allows Bete to be Drawn to Death next turn but nothing about it seems to prevent her from being Drawn to Death this turn. Is there supposed to be a limitation here rather than an allowance?

1. Not sure to be honest

2. Yes she doesn't get feed on death on the turn she comes in but any subsequent turns she's still on the table allows her to gain fast.

3. No because she isn't on the table when the model dies

4. Already been answered?

5. Check out the V2 card

[LordFett]

5. Check out the V2 card

Bete Noire V2:

Do not deploy this model at the start of the game. Instead, when a living or Undead model is killed or sacrificed, you may choose to Place this model in base contact with the killed or sacrificed model before it is removed from play. If this model is not in play at the end of the game, it counts as a killed for Encounter purposes.

[Hatchethead]

1. I don't know. Good question. Drawn to death allows her to be placed in play from an out of play state and/or from a buried state (One With the Night), which makes me think she can unbury herself regardless of what buries her. However, I don't think she could do so if she's buried on the same turn she enters play using OWtN. She would have to wait until the next turn. That would be my best guess.

2. You're correct, the wording is odd. That said, I interpret it to read, "When a living model is killed within 3", this model receives Fast until the Start of the Closing Phase." That's how I've always played it and I've never had an opponent cry foul.

3. No. She wasn't placed (in play) when the model died, hence she would not gain Fast. Though the model is removed after Bête is placed, it's officially dead/sac'd by the time she makes her appearance.

4. This has been definitively answered by the RMs.

5. I consider the second sentence of One With the Night (v2) an obvious restriction on using Drawn to Death multiple times in the same turn. Honestly, regardless of how I lawyer it, I'm unable to interpret it any other way.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Hatchethead

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

1. Can she use Drawn To Death to escape from a Pine Box or Disappearing Act?

Yes she may.

2. Feed on Death is worded insanely. As written it seems Feed on Death itself goes away at the Start Closing Phase if Bete happens to be in play and thus she'll never gain Fast again. As long as she keeps getting Buried before the Start Closing Phase though she keeps the ability and can keep gaining Fast.

What's the question?

3. If a Living model is Killed and Bete uses Drawn to Death to enter play does she immediately gain Fast from Feed on Death?

No.

She's not in play when the model is considered killed.

4. If Bete has one of her Depraved Tactics and is then Buried she will still have it if she is Drawn to Death next turn. Can she then gain another Depraved Tactic or will this only change which she has active?

It would only change the active effect.

5. One with the Night allows Bete to be Drawn to Death next turn but nothing about it seems to prevent her from being Drawn to Death this turn. Is there supposed to be a limitation here rather than an allowance?

It's a limitation.

[Hatchethead]

One related question, Sketch:

If Bete is placed into play by Drawn to Death and is then Pine Boxed by a Death Marshal next activation, can she be Drawn to Death again in that same turn? Since she wasn't buried by One With the Night, is this permitted? If so, what happens to her AP assuming they were spent on the turn she initially entered play? Does she reappear with no AP (assuming she can be Drawn multiple times depending on what buries her)?

[Dumb Luck]

Question.

Bete is on the board. Something dies. Can she warp to that spot with Drawn to Death or is that just for deployment?

[sephiroa]

Question.

Bete is on the board. Something dies. Can she warp to that spot with Drawn to Death or is that just for deployment?

drawn to death only applies whe she is burried,, that's what i think tough

[Chipacabra]

It would only change the active effect.

.

Could you go into more detail about this one? Ratty earlier said that two different Depraved Tactics would stack.

On the other hand, the usual rule for stuff that doesn't stack is that the second application does nothing, right?

So why, in this case, does a new Depraved Tactics replace the old one?

[Math Mathonwy]

Yes.

As the Effect itself that is named cannot be stacked.

It would only change the active effect.

I'm really confused now.

[Math Mathonwy]

So - do the differently named effects of a given spell stack or merely replace?

[CRC]

Bump. I'm also not satisfied with the resolution of this.

I was thinking of pre-summoning Bete and giving her some Massive Dose action, then she could fire off a Depraved Tactics and One with the Night so she could drop on enemies later for massive beatings.

But it seems like the rules for Massive Dose and Depraved Tactics directly contradict each other. One stacks, the other doesn't?

[Fading Memory]

Ratty already went over this. The rule says "unless otherwise stated." Bete and Nurses say "receive one of the following effects;" there are three separate effects which can affect the model. The spell "Depraved Tactics" and "Massive Overdose" are not creating effects called "Depraved Tactics" and "Massive Overdose;" therefore, it is possible for these models to gain or give out three separate effects from their spells. The rule applies to something like the spell "Undress." The spell reads "Target enemy model receives -2 Df until the Start Closing Phase." If a model hit by undress is hit by "Undress" again, it does not get an additional -2 defense has the model is already affected by the effect "Undress."

[CRC]

Ratty already went over this. [...]

Then WEiRD sKeTCH went and confused the issue:

It would only change the active effect.

Two marshals, two conflicting rulings. I want to use this tactic, so I want to know where it stands.

[Fading Memory]

WEiRD sKeTCH has a misunderstanding in his interpretation. By his view of the rule Bete can only be affected by one of the effects from Depraved Tactics. If she recasts her spell, then by his standards she would be re-effected by the same spell of Depraved Tactics and the rules would not allow her to replace the effect as she would already be affected by Depraved Tactics. If she were to recast it this way, the original effect would still be the one that takes presidence as by this ruling it would fall under the ruling of stacking. Therefore WEiRD sKeTCH has a flaw in his ruling and as Ratty does not have a flaw in his ruling, his is the one that should be followed.