Bete Noire

[Masque]

I'm going to be playing my first games both with and against Bete soon since a friend and I have both recently hired her on. I'm a little unclear on a few of her rules so I'm looking for some help.

1. Can she use Drawn To Death to escape from a Pine Box or Disappearing Act?

2. Feed on Death is worded insanely. As written it seems Feed on Death itself goes away at the Start Closing Phase if Bete happens to be in play and thus she'll never gain Fast again. As long as she keeps getting Buried before the Start Closing Phase though she keeps the ability and can keep gaining Fast.

3. If a Living model is Killed and Bete uses Drawn to Death to enter play does she immediately gain Fast from Feed on Death?

4. If Bete has one of her Depraved Tactics and is then Buried she will still have it if she is Drawn to Death next turn. Can she then gain another Depraved Tactic or will this only change which she has active?

5. One with the Night allows Bete to be Drawn to Death next turn but nothing about it seems to prevent her from being Drawn to Death this turn. Is there supposed to be a limitation here rather than an allowance?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Hmmmm interesting questions, I haven't been too good at getting actual rules interpretations correct in the past, but... Here's my interpretations:

1. The Ability Drawn to Death states:

Do not deploy this model at the start of the game. Instead, when a living or undead model is killed or sacrificed, you may choose to Place this model is base contact with the killed or sacrificed model before it is removed from play. If this model is not in play at the end of the game, it counts as killed for Encounter purposes.

After thinking about it I *think* you can use Drawn to Death anytime that Bete is not totally dead and a model is killed or sacrificed. The only issue that gives me pause is the wording Instead. Actually, if I'm reading the ability correctly in thinking it over again I think you can have Bete be Placed in base to base with a model anytime a model is killed or sacrificed regardless or wether she is in play or not. The ability doesn't state she has to be out of play to begin with. I'm shaky on this though so someone who is better at rules issues might need to weigh in.

2.I think I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with your interpretation. As an ability Feed on Death is always active. The way it's worded the first section of the sentence is a qualifier. It says until the end closing phase, if this happens Bete gets this. Once a new turn happens the Ability would reapply itself.

3. No, Bete is placed in base to base with the model after it is killed but before it is removed from play. Since Bete was not within 3" of the model when it was killed she does not gain Fast.

4.Yes, as per the Dreamer's models, if a model is not in play during the Resolve Effects step of the turn any Effects that would have ended remain active on the model until they remain in play during the Resolve Effects step.

No, multiple Depraved Tactics will not stack as they have the same name. The effect the spell has is differently named, but the spell itself has the same name, and so will not stack with itself.

5. One with the Night imposes a qualifier on when you may again use Drawn to Death, IE next turn, because of this I don't believe you can use it on the same turn.

Any Rules Marshalls care to weigh in?

[poulpox]

After thinking about it I *think* you can use Drawn to Death anytime that Bete is not totally dead and a model is killed or sacrificed. The only issue that gives me pause is the wording Instead. Actually, if I'm reading the ability correctly in thinking it over again I think you can have Bete be Placed in base to base with a model anytime a model is killed or sacrificed regardless or wether she is in play or not. The ability doesn't state she has to be out of play to begin with. I'm shaky on this though so someone who is better at rules issues might need to weigh in.

Those point seem right to me, except point 1: the instead you mention refers to "deploy at the start of the game", so yes the ability does state Bete has to be out of play to begin with; once she is in play she can't switch place with a model killed/sacd somewhere else on the field. As for unburrying herself from ennemy's effects, I know the Dreamer can, but this was a particular ruling, which I'm not sure extended to other models. I'll have a little search...

[poulpox]

Ok, so no I don't think Bete can unburry herself from Pine box according to RM burrying rule mentioned here; Dreamer is an exception to that as ruled here.

[Masque]

Since those threads the rules for Bury have changed. The Rules Manual makes no stipulation that only the effect that Buries a model can unBury that model.

[Headcase2]

No, multiple Depraved Tactics will not stack as they have the same name. The effect the spell has is differently named, but the spell itself has the same name, and so will not stack with itself.

I think this is incorrect. The effect names are Sever Spine, Groin Strike, and Mutilate, which means they can all be in effect at the same time. (Same with a Pine Boxed Lady Justice by the way: she can have multiple different Sword Style effects on her.)

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think this is incorrect. The effect names are Sever Spine, Groin Strike, and Mutilate, which means they can all be in effect at the same time. (Same with a Pine Boxed Lady Justice by the way: she can have multiple different Sword Style effects on her.)

I would disagree with this. The rules says that spells with the same name do not stack. The spell in question is named Depraved Tactics. I might have overlooked it, so if you can reference a page number in the RM I would be gratetful, but nothing I've seen says that if a spell has multiple different effects to choose from the choice of one or the other changes the name of the spell. At the end of the day Depraved Tactics is the name of the spell. The names of the effects make it easier to reference which effect is used, but choosing to use Severe Spine doesn't officially change the name of the spell to Depraved Tactics Severe Spine. Again if there was an official ruling that didn't make it's way into the RM I must have missed it, but barring that I think you are incorrect in this interpretation.

As to the first question as to whether she can jump to death while in play or unbury her... I'll admit I'm shaky on my interpretation. I doubt very highly it was the intent and after some consideration I think I agree with you that she can't do it in play. I don't think even the V2 ability is worded well however because of that word...Instead. Nothing in the wording requires that you must be out of play to use it.

The correct interpretation might be that Drawn to Death as part of the way she deploys only works once, because a model only deploys once. The fact that One with the Night specifically references the ability, and allows a condition to break the rules on using an ability based on deployment to return from burying makes it work. In which case if Bete was removed from play for any reason without first casting One with the Night then she wouldn't be able to use Drawn to Death to return to play.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[Q'iq'el]

I would disagree with this. The rules says that spells with the same name do not stack. The spell in question is named Depraved Tactics. I might have overlooked it, so if you can reference a page number in the RM I would be gratetful, but nothing I've seen says that if a spell has multiple different effects to choose from the choice of one or the other changes the name of the spell.

This is something which seems to have changed. Before the effects' name was the deciding factor.

Currently, in the Rules Manual, the stacking has been defined on the page 20 and the relevant part seems to be:

"- Do not stack (apply their effects cumulatively) on a model if received from Talents or Spells with the same name, unless indicated otherwise in their descriptions.".

Which seems to indicate the different effects of Depraved Tactics do not stack anymore.

[poulpox]

Since those threads the rules for Bury have changed. The Rules Manual makes no stipulation that only the effect that Buries a model can unBury that model.

Oh ok, sorry wasn't aware of this change

[Soundwave]

This is something which seems to have changed. Before the effects' name was the deciding factor.

Currently, in the Rules Manual, the stacking has been defined on the page 20 and the relevant part seems to be:

"- Do not stack (apply their effects cumulatively) on a model if received from Talents or Spells with the same name, unless indicated otherwise in their descriptions.".

Which seems to indicate the different effects of Depraved Tactics do not stack anymore.

So nurses can't use massive dose to give a target all three effects, if she'd want to? I thought this was a common tactic, like combining speed and stimulant.

[Q'iq'el]

So nurses can't use massive dose to give a target all three effects, if she'd want to? I thought this was a common tactic, like combining speed and stimulant.

Yup, but it isn't legal anymore it seems. Used to work with no problems in the previous edition of the rules.

There's always the possibility that the v2 rules for a specific model may allow the effects of a spell to stack, but I don't see any such wording on Bête, Nurses or Lady J.

[Headcase2]

I think the main problem here is the definition of "stacking". In the example given they use various effects that reduce Df, but with different names. If you get an effect named Sever Spine and one named Groin Strike, are you stacking effects then?

Look at it this way: if Bete were to use Groin Strike twice to get :+fate:+fate:+fate that would be considered stacking and therefore not allowed.

About the Nurse: she's not really that good to begin with, and if you were to take away her multi-massive dose fun she'd have to go and hide in a corner and cry.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Pg 20 of the Rules Manual:

Stacking Effects

Ongoing Game Effects

Do not stack (apply their effects cumulatively) on a model if received from Talents or Spells with the same name unless indicated otherwise in their descriptions.

The spell in question is Depraved Tactics. If you chose the Effect Sever Spine, are removed from play before it fades, return to play and cast Depraved Tactics to gain Groin Strike as well you are still casting the same spell with the same name. Nothing in the spell's description states that choosing a different effect changes the name of the spell. You are still trying to stack two applications of a spell with the same name, which the rules do not allow.

Edited June 12, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[CubertFarnsworth]

OOOOHHHHH NNNNOOOOOO................Not my nurse.

.......will have to keep an eye on this thread

[Adran]

Strongly hoping for a rules change that the closing phase will effect buried models.

Just makes life so much easier.

[Headcase2]

Well, the Depraved Tactics spell raeds as follows:

"This model's Knife Strikes receive one of the following effects until the Start Closing Phase:..."

This leads me to believe the effect name is not Depraved Tactics, but Sever Spine, Groin Strike and Mutilate.

And as I said before, the definition of stacking is also relevant here.

[Q'iq'el]

Well, the Depraved Tactics spell raeds as follows:

"This model's Knife Strikes receive one of the following effects until the Start Closing Phase:..."

This leads me to believe the effect name is not Depraved Tactics, but Sever Spine, Groin Strike and Mutilate.

And as I said before, the definition of stacking is also relevant here.

Oh you are perfectly right about effect names. That is not what changed though.

Take a good look at the page 20 and re-read all the bullet points for ongoing effects again.

See, the effects that stack by cumulatively affecting certain stats, have their own bullet points. But there's also one that simply say, you cannot have multiple effects coming from a Spell or Talent with the same name. Depraved Tactics is a spell, so no matter if the effects name differ, as long as they come from the same source they do not stack.

There's also a clause that prohibits getting multiple effects of the same name, even if they come from differently named Spells or Talents.

If you consider all that it is pretty clear the rules have changed quite a bit in this aspect.

[Ratty]

It says "receives one of the following effects". Then the following effects are listed with names. IE the effect left on the model are Sever Spine, Groin Strike and Mutilate not Depraved Tactics. Therefore you can stack Sever Spine with Groin Strike on the same Bete as they are listed as separate effects.

[Fetid Strumpet]

So Ratty, does that mean across the board that any spell which can generate multiple effects can stack its different effects even though the spell itself has the same name?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

So Ratty, does that mean across the board that any spell which can generate multiple effects can stack its different effects even though the spell itself has the same name?

Yes.

As the Effect itself that is named cannot be stacked.

[Masque]

Any chance of getting Rules Marshall answers to my other questions about Bete?

[Chipacabra]

Yes.

As the Effect itself that is named cannot be stacked.

So the rule that someone earlier quoted

"- Do not stack (apply their effects cumulatively) on a model if received from Talents or Spells with the same name, unless indicated otherwise in their descriptions.".

is not correct?

[Ratty]

So the rule that someone earlier quoted

is not correct?

Nope it's correct, it says "unless indicated otherwise in their descriptions.". In the spells description it says it's creating an effect with a different name. Therefore it's indicating otherwise.

[Sandwich]

OHHH

I get what's going on.

I was confused.

So something like Seamus' Terrifying ->14 can't stack because its a single effect from a single spellm but Bete's Depraved Tactics can because its multiple effects from a single spell.

I see.

Okay.

Sounds cool.

[CubertFarnsworth]

Yes.

As the Effect itself that is named cannot be stacked.

So what you are saying is that the :drew can cast all of her spells on one target?

[Q'iq'el]

I still think the wording is too confusing.

I went back to the Book 1 to check the old rule and was shocked to see the wording uses the same terms.

I think it must have been a ruling on the forums that allowed Spell effects with different name from the same spell to stack, because it isn't in the old Errata either.

Anyway, back to the current Rules Manual:

Why even mention "Spells and Talents with the same name" if the Spell name is irrelevant? From the beginning, only the "Effect name" counts and that may sometimes be identical to the "Spell name", but clearly doesn't have to be.

What is even more confusing, is the second sentence of the Bullet point, which this argument conveniently skips. It tells us to ignore subsequent applications of the Effect with the same name. In itself it doesn't go against the above ruling and can't be dismissed as mere repetition, but in the context of the unfortunate wording of the entire bullet point, it only re-inforces the wrong interpretation.