Hookers Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Can I just ask a really silly question... I'm new to Malifaux and do not YET own the second book. Looking at the models there is a Hamelin the Plagued and a Hamelin the Rat Catcher. Are these the same rules etc just a variant figure or do they have totally separate rules? separate rules Hamelin the Rat Catcher is a minion, and a mercenary so can be hired by anyone. He's pretty cool. He's so cool they decided to make a master out of him in book 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regnak Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 separate rules Hamelin the Rat Catcher is a minion, and a mercenary so can be hired by anyone. He's pretty cool. He's so cool they decided to make a master out of him in book 2. Ah, ok. Thanks for explaining that. Are they fluff wise supposed to be the same character at different stages in his life? The rat catcher look like an older version of him? I'm toying with getting his boxset as my next purchase on Saturday. I don't know about his rules, I'm basing my choice on how great the boxset looks to build and paint Can't make up my mind on the boxsets in my sig... Oh.. and sorry for the :tj: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Out of those both Hamelin and Som'er need a lot more models to make them work. Seamus is great out of the Box. Collette works but could do with some Mechanical doves and maybe a Coryphee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regnak Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Out of those both Hamelin and Som'er need a lot more models to make them work. Seamus is great out of the Box. Collette works but could do with some Mechanical doves and maybe a Coryphee. Thanks for the help Ratty. Will read through the forums a bit to see what lists people use for Hamelin and Som'er to see how much is needed to make them work. But its good to know which are good almost out the box as that may sway the choice I think the choice will be a spontaneous one as heading to Dark Sphere and depends on what they have in stock also... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 hamelin needs: boxset + 2 clamshells of stolen + 4-5 clamshells of rats + obedient wretch + rat catchers, to be completely sorted. Teeth needs: boxset + 4 clamshells of mosquitoes + 1 - 2 clamshells of gremlins + slop haulers (stop here for the minimum gremlin swarm) + hog whisperer + taxidermist + stuffed/normal piglets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regnak Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 hamelin needs: boxset + 2 clamshells of stolen + 4-5 clamshells of rats + obedient wretch + rat catchers, to be completely sorted. Teeth needs: boxset + 4 clamshells of mosquitoes + 1 - 2 clamshells of gremlins + slop haulers (stop here for the minimum gremlin swarm) + hog whisperer + taxidermist + stuffed/normal piglets Wow! Those two are more like small armies than gangs! Thank you for posting a breakdown of what I need. Very useful indeed. :bigthumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) I would agree with Tiny's estimation, you might not need 9 stolen though. 6 might well be enough. but I would say you need at least 12 rats. They are probably the biggest crews in the game, followed by Nicodem and Kirai who both need a large summoning pool. Edited June 22, 2011 by Ratty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 derp completely forgot stolen came in teh box, yes 6 at most id say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regnak Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Great stuff. Thank you both for your help. Been very useful indeed. As I will be playing friends and the Fiancee I could field some non-wyrd rats to make up the numbers. Lucky I also happen to have alot of Skaven laying about that include lots of giant rats still on sprues. Those should make up the numbers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 I have large numbers of metal rats from other systems when I finally get to Hamelin I will have a real mix. The Wyrd ones are great though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 To add to Tiny's recommended Gremlin list post, I would add that with all that you will be able to play Some'r in all his current iterations (Pig Boomerang, Alpha Stank, & Gremlin Gunline). He has a lot of depth and a slightly higher then average learning curve (though this is mainly to get around the crews unique shenanigans). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted June 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 :offtopic: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Hamelin isn't overpowered. He is not going to win every tournament just for taking him. If you win a tournament with hamelin, you are still a good player (the same as if you win any tournament with anyone). That's an extremely weird definition for "overpowered" that a) is not used by anyone and seems basically impossible to meet. So why on earth would you use that definition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 That's an extremely weird definition for "overpowered" that a) is not used by anyone and seems basically impossible to meet. So why on earth would you use that definition? I can almost taste the animosity. Hamelin is imbalanced, but not always Overpowered. Due to the limitations on the crew, a counter is very easily built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Due to the limitations on the crew, a counter is very easily built. I don't see this as a valid defence of his imbalance though, given that if you play the game as per the rulebook (or under most tournament setups), you don't know you're facing Hamelin until you've already picked your crew. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonB Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 But you are building a crew that will invariably play Hamelin, so you should have something there to help counter him. No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) I wouldn't say invariably no... I played in a 4 game tourney earlier this month - Hamelin was present but I didn't face him. Consider that a) I only had a pre-selected 55ss pool of minions to choose crews from in each game and an anti-Hamelin crew needs to feature some very specific models/abilities I definitely think it's clearly imbalanced to expect people choose part of their minion pool to be there as a counter for just one master that they might not face. Even then, in casual games (playing according to the rules manual) you could find an opponent playing Outcasts, build an anti-Hamelin crew, then end up playing agains Gremlins, Friekorps or Levi... Mike Edited June 23, 2011 by Mike3838 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 I definitely think it's clearly imbalanced to expect people choose part of their minion pool to be there as a counter for just one master that they might not face. Do there, seriously, exist minions whose sole purpose is to counter Hamelin and would be useless in any other circumstance? If so, which models come into this group? As far as casual games go, it's practically impossible to get a game without knowing your opponents entire crew, never mind the master. The rules, as they are, work virtually only for pick-up games and players with extensive collections of models who also want to enforce the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Do there' date=' seriously, exist minions whose sole purpose is to counter Hamelin and would be useless in any other circumstance?[/quote'] Obviously not, but all I'm saying is, with a pre selected minion pool (or even crew), you're going to have to choose something with a mix of capabilities that can counter a mix of opponents. Therefore it's not a fair defence to say "He's not overpowered, you just need to have X, Y and Z to beat him". If you haven't chosen XYZ (or maybe your master doesn't even have access to XYZ) then you're on the back foot before the game even starts. My generically selected all-purpose crew is at a disadvantage vs Hamelin that it just isn't against most other masters. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 I can almost taste the animosity. Huh? I have absolutely nothing against Hookers, I assure you. The only person that I would say I bear animosity towards I've ignore listed for their horrid behaviour. Hamelin is imbalanced, but not always Overpowered. Do you use the same definition for "Overpowered" as Hookers? Because if you do, can you name even one model/army in the history of minis wargames that would be "Overpowered"? I mean, even the original Nicodem with 12 dogs is beatable in certain scenarios so doesn't fulfill Hookers' definition. (I can, mind you, but only one and it's pretty obscure and was fixed quickly) Due to the limitations on the crew, a counter is very easily built. "Very easily"? That's a pretty bold claim, don't you think? I mean, it's obviously possible that everyone magicpockets played in the tournament that spawned this thread sucked fiercely, but I'd say that the more likely hypothesis is that it isn't quite so "very easy" as you say. Have you considered that your skills are just so high above the usual player's that you simply can't generalize from your own experiences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmike Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 While i think Hamelin is at the highest end of the power scale (with LCB keeping him company) I dont think he is OP. I dont think you REQUIRE X Y Z to beat him but having too much of "V" (gremlins) would cause you a loss against him. There are going to be match ups where people are at a noticeable disadvantage.( Raspy Vs Schill). Yes some(Many) people dislike playing against him, yes some(many) people think he is OP. ->I<- think that we all know that he is beatable, people seem to focus more on how they cant beat him than how they can. Ive noticed over 22 pages some arguments and points get restated over and over. Sometimes debates get heated over these disagreements. much like people do Tatica for playing people maybe someone should put one together for playing against the higher tier masters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 While i think Hamelin is at the highest end of the power scale (with LCB keeping him company) I dont think he is OP. I dont think you REQUIRE X Y Z to beat him but having too much of "V" (gremlins) would cause you a loss against him. There are going to be match ups where people are at a noticeable disadvantage.( Raspy Vs Schill). Yes some(Many) people dislike playing against him, yes some(many) people think he is OP. ->I<- think that we all know that he is beatable, people seem to focus more on how they cant beat him than how they can. Ive noticed over 22 pages some arguments and points get restated over and over. Sometimes debates get heated over these disagreements. much like people do Tatica for playing people maybe someone should put one together for playing against the higher tier masters. Is your definition of "OP" "unbeatable"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmike Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 If i had to define OP in the way that i mean it, I would say that it is a rule, model, or scenario that causes a breakdown in the game or causes the game to no longer be playable. This would not include players needing a higher level of skill nor would it include greater and more in depth levels of strategy.This would include but not be limited to, an infinite loop, an auto win, contradicting rules, and other things along this line, which as stated with auto win would include Unbeatable.OP should not be used to describe " Really really hard." I would use "[url=http://define.com/rendered] Rendered powerless especially by an excessive amount or profusion of something." Though he would be OP by the definition " Having more than the required power", but at that point there are defiantly more master than Hamelin that meet that definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 If i had to define OP in the way that i mean it, I would say that it is a rule, model, or scenario that causes a breakdown in the game or causes the game to no longer be playable. This would not include players needing a higher level of skill nor would it include greater and more in depth levels of strategy.This would include but not be limited to, an infinite loop, an auto win, contradicting rules, and other things along this line, which as stated with auto win would include Unbeatable.OP should not be used to describe " Really really hard." I would use "[url=http://define.com/rendered] Rendered powerless especially by an excessive amount or profusion of something." Though he would be OP by the definition " Having more than the required power", but at that point there are defiantly more master than Hamelin that meet that definition. So, a Lady Justice with, say, 40 wounds wouldn't be OP? As it doesn't break down the game in any meaningful way, it would just make her really, really hard to take down. A pretty strange definition, but at least it's more usable than the previous one that was considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted June 23, 2011 Report Share Posted June 23, 2011 Bigmike, I'd say your definition of OP actually describes broken. To paraphrase a quote from Scott Lynch, "OP and broken are close cousins and often mistaken for each other." I can only comment on what I perceive as a less then stellar choice in the utilization of a great deal of passive control in the rules governing Hamelin. I honestly think overall he is currently bad for the game in his current form and that the suggested fixes by Sandwhich, Magicpockets, and Necromorph would go a great deal to fixing him. Namely that Bully becomes a static target number, and that the Lure Malifaux citizen become a spell. Hamelin would still be VERY powerful, but would be a much more enjoyable, though still very hard, master to play against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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