How does Wyrd/ Malifaux Expand.

[Mentat_Canis]

Just for reference of what I am going to say, I have a BS in Business Management and I find this subject fascinating and was wondering what others thought on this topic now to the topic.

After playing Malifaux now for about 9 months and loving it I am now trying to figure out what the growth plan for Wyrd is and also what they are planing on doing with Malifaux.

The reason I bring this up is Malifaux as a whole is a skirmish game and anyone who has played enough games I think will be willing to tell you that after about 70ss Brawl or even a 55ss scrap the game loses something, I think this is because each model can do so much and game of this size just start going to long and around turn 3-4 you are like ok lets get this over with.

So when I think of how they are expanding the game in the future the easiest thing to think of is to add more options and more masters, and for the next book or two that will be fine but at some point in time people will have there crews and options for good 35 and 45ss lists and will stop buying at some point. Most gaming companies to combat this have gone to promoting larger games, GW comes to mind when I started playing a decade ago 1500 was standard now models are cheaper point wise and 1850 is standard and it helps sell models, Privateer Press(PP) has done that a little with there recent revamp they also changed most rules to make it work well at larger points where you can field more models easily.

I personally hope that Wyrd doesn't use this cop-out because there game is unique in that it does skirmish right, and it is hard for me to think of another game that does. So the question then is how to stay on a steady income trail or growing, well for now with more people joining the game that is not as hard because as a young company they have interest in them so its easy to keep selling Perdita box sets. For people already in the hobby we are mostly still picking up pieces we think are cool so that is also a help, but I have found in my local store and a little on the forums that once you hit around 4-5 masters maybe 6 you start to fill out those crews and sit on them for a long time and just play games. I also think that if you keep adding masters you will run out of ideas for individuals like no one else that are truly different and fun to play with, an example of where this is coming from is look at Hoffman and Ramos they start to get close to each other, I think Avatars might do that also.

So for Wyrd as a whole I am very happy about puppet wars because it adds another game system to what they produce and is a 2nd money stream and will allow for a younger audience from what I have heard come into the game.

My question still is how does Wyrd stay thriving in the long run. In the short run(next 2 years) I think the expanding Malifaux will be great and we will see new masters and new ideas, but at some point you end up with too many models some that don't get bought anymore and you need to figure out a way to push more models out. I hope to see them continue coming out with new games Puppets I think is a test bed and I hope it is great for them but a totally different game could be awesome too. I really hope and don't think that they will not just try to grow Malifaux into a larger scale game as it hit magic where it is.

Cheers to Wyrd for the great game they have and I can't wait to figure out how they grow and and how they deal with successes and failures.

Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[VonWyll]

Interesting to consider.

I too have noticed that once you get to 60ss the game loses something (unless of course you are playing 2v2 then it matters a lot less because you're with your mates).

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more Malifaux team tournaments and have Malifaux promoted and expand into a game (around 50ss+) that you play with a friend. You got me thinking and I'm not sure I can think of another game system that actively promotes the Co-Op mentality. In fact, I've noticed a distinct lack of Co-Op in gaming in general.

[gnam]

I'm not sure if it's really an issue.

Most games have a comfortable point range, and people seem happy to stay within those ranges even if more and more models keep coming out.

As an avid Warmachine/Hordes player I can tell you that locally we generally play 35 point games (which is roughly the equivalent of 500 points in Mk I), and that hasn't changed in over 2 years. On top of this, people keep buying all the new models as they come out, they just use them as further options for their army each week.

I don't think Malifaux will need to change it's format or the comfortable point ranges people frequent. Players will just adapt as new models comes out, and teams will have more variety to choose from at any given time.

As for your comment on people sitting on 5-6 masters and just playing them, my experience differs from this greatly (in both Malifaux and other games). Most players that I know and have met suffer from "faction ADD", and will end up over their lifetime picking up multiple factions and masters to play. In Malifaux, this is even easier to do than other games due to the low model count required for an team to be built.

Overall, I don't think we have to worry about Malifaux moving to a larger scale game, people will just play the point level the feel comfortable with, and have more options to do so.

[Bleys_Bariman]

EDITTED FOR BREVITY - - -

...You got me thinking and I'm not sure I can think of another game system that actively promotes the Co-Op mentality. In fact, I've noticed a distinct lack of Co-Op in gaming in general.

In miniature gaming, no I have yet to see a system that encourages co-op play. However, there's a couple of board games that have the co-op mechanic. Pandemic is the ultimate USSR game. The game plays you and you end up losing most of the time. Red November is the other game that is (mostly) co-op play.

[Buhallin]

I don't think model inflation is really quite so bad as you're making it out to be. Yes, GW has expanded the model counts, and PP has too, but how much? 10% over 20 years for GW? That's really not excessive. GW does keep pushing "alternate play options" like Spearhead and Apocalypse, which just happen to rely on a lot of their high-dollar kits, and those kits are moving into the standard for both 40K and WHFB, but I think overall it hasn't changed that much.

Malifaux (like Warmachine) has an advantage going forward in that it's built to have a huge variety in each model. When most of your models are 5-6 stats each in a 3-point range, there's only so much you can do. But the ability variation in Malifaux means that a few new models can add a lot to the game without requiring the basic game size to grow. Which is good, because I agree with you on the scale issue. We played a 40SS Brawl last week, and found it almost too big.

I wouldn't be too worried about people just locking in to the models they've already got and not buying any more. Some will, certainly, but there's also a large contingent who regularly turn over completely new WHFB or 40K armies at price tags from $300-$800. Malifaux's low price point will serve it well here, too - I added Kirai and everything she needed to my collection last week, for around $100 total. Hard to beat that.

[nilus]

Several of the designers (sKeTcH, Kel, EricJ) have all said that the ideal point range is really between 30 - 40 Stones. I don't see them trying to turn Malifaux into a Wargame with 100 Soul stone battles.

Instead I bet we see more ways to play the game. Like Henchman. We don't know exactly what Avatars will be but we can assume they will be something different as well.

The special forces rules also lead to a lot of cool options. They are really factions within factions.

Also remember Malifaux has built in rules for drafting crews each round, even in tournies. So I see Malifaux growing through variety not army building. People will see a use to have 100 SS worth of models, but you won't see more then a third of those on the board most games.

[Mentat_Canis]

I don't think model inflation is really quite so bad as you're making it out to be. Yes, GW has expanded the model counts, and PP has too, but how much? 10% over 20 years for GW? That's really not excessive. GW does keep pushing "alternate play options" like Spearhead and Apocalypse, which just happen to rely on a lot of their high-dollar kits, and those kits are moving into the standard for both 40K and WHFB, but I think overall it hasn't changed that much.

Malifaux (like Warmachine) has an advantage going forward in that it's built to have a huge variety in each model. When most of your models are 5-6 stats each in a 3-point range, there's only so much you can do. But the ability variation in Malifaux means that a few new models can add a lot to the game without requiring the basic game size to grow. Which is good, because I agree with you on the scale issue. We played a 40SS Brawl last week, and found it almost too big.

I wouldn't be too worried about people just locking in to the models they've already got and not buying any more. Some will, certainly, but there's also a large contingent who regularly turn over completely new WHFB or 40K armies at price tags from $300-$800. Malifaux's low price point will serve it well here, too - I added Kirai and everything she needed to my collection last week, for around $100 total. Hard to beat that.

I think that the inflation in models is more towards 25% because of point inflation in games size and comparable models are less expensive and when was the last 1250 point 40k game you saw. As for people continuing to get crews I agree it is less expensive, I just picked up lilith for 80ish, I just think you will only have a finite amount of crews you like the look/ feel of and if they just keep more of the same us who love the game will continue to play, but growth for the company might slow. I am talking 3-4 years down the road though nothing soon.

Several

of the designers (sKeTcH, Kel, EricJ) have all said that the ideal point range is really between 30 - 40 Stones. I don't see them trying to turn Malifaux into a Wargame with 100 Soul stone battles.

Instead I bet we see more ways to play the game. Like Henchman. We don't know exactly what Avatars will be but we can assume they will be something different as well.

The special forces rules also lead to a lot of cool options. They are really factions within factions.

Also remember Malifaux has built in rules for drafting crews each round, even in tournies. So I see Malifaux growing through variety not army building. People will see a use to have 100 SS worth of models, but you won't see more then a third of those on the board most games.

I agree and hope that we do stay at 20-50ss, and Henchman are great I can't wait for mine because I have several crews I want her for, also I am a little premature on thinking Avatars will be like epics in WM/H and I could be very very wrong about that.

Just to keep where I stand in mind, I love this game and I hope it has a long fruitful run and I have 3 more crews I want to flesh out, but you only get so much time to play at life.

[GTFriday13]

The biggest thing going for Malifaux IMHO is the replay-ability offered by various strategies and schemes. It doesn't matter if I have the same models or different ones, I'll buy scenario books all day long if they offer new and exciting ways for me to use my models. It's a great way to add variety for seasoned players without necessarily adding more complexity to play.

[Chucklemonkey]

While I agree with many of the points made in relation to the fact Malifaux is likely to stay within 50 points in terms of regular games I can definitely see some large kits coming out in the future, stagecoaches, nightmare versions of other mini's etc. I still think Mentat has a very valid question in terms of how wyrd is to expand in the years to come.

It is very hopeful to suggest Wyrd can continue to grow simply on the back of one skirmish game. Luckily they already seem to be taking the next steps required, with the upcoming release of puppet wars. Also, Terraclips should appeal to many gamers outside of the world of Malifaux as it is something completely new and sorely missing from the hobby. How long it will take for it to pay for itself after the nightmare they seem to be having in production is anyone's guess.

I don't think Malifaux and puppet wars will be enough to really move Wyrd to the next level - if they want to go there - luckily it seems everyone at wyrd seems to be well on top of moving things forward and I have yet to be negatively surprised by the direction they are taking.

[(TV)]

I also think that malifaux should play to it's strength of small skirmish level games. I know making everything just bigger is easy, but I think the game would lose part of it's market advanatge if it went that direction.

Personally, I would really like to see an expansion in the area of Malifaux story element and game-play. By this I mean that since the great mission/objective rules already help each game have a sens eof story, why not capitalize that by maybe doing campaign supplements? Obviosuly this may not always be as lucrative, but you could *also* do what VtES did and package special "mission only" models that not only make the release more commercially viable but also make for a great way to test to lines and designs, as well as story-lines.

Anyway, I guess to summarize my thoughts for expansion are to keep it small but continue to innovate in the areas of story and gameplay.

Regards,

TV

[Necromorph]

Yeah I've played some 2v2 games, and while they can be fun, they take foreverrrrr. It would be interesting to see them expand this, but I'm not sure how it would pan out with the overall gamplay mechanics (A reason why they made Apocalypse for 40k; to increase the amount of points you can field and increase 2v2 viability without limiting you to standard Codex restrictions, and adding new elements to it...hell it's almost a mini game).

On the subject of larger games, I agree, once you increase past a certain number of points, the game loses its coherency. Similar to Infinity, if you up the points too much, it turns into a game of "Who owns the cheesiest models / can field more of them in a game."

Malifaux works at low ss levels because you can't flood the field with all those big nasties because you're points limited and you'll get out-activated and outmanouvered.

[LoboStele]

For what it's worth, Wyrd is putting out roughly 60 or so miniatures per year. Maybe closer to 80. By comparison, Wizards of the Coast used to put out somewhere between 120 and 180 miniatures in the Star Wars line per year, and they kept that up for 5 years. They had 16 sets of 60 pieces, plus some odd scenario packs here and there. Over 900 pieces total. I think Wyrd has PLENTY of room to expand and continue over the next several years. And who knows where else they could take things if they end up creating a new faction or two at some point. I don't know that I would recommend that necessarily, as new factions typically end up feeling like they are always inferior just due to low number of available models. But, things like the Three Kingdoms theme, give some more room for expansion.

[(TV)]

I think even past developing the game, developing the market is always important. Games likes this are always harder to get word out for, so my thoughts are that maybe something like the old GW Rogue Trader/Grey Knight Program would be really great. I know there are "henchman" but I am not sure what the difference might be, my bad XD.

Regards,

TV

[Sliver Chocobo]

For what it's worth, Wyrd is putting out roughly 60 or so miniatures per year. Maybe closer to 80. By comparison, Wizards of the Coast used to put out somewhere between 120 and 180 miniatures in the Star Wars line per year, and they kept that up for 5 years. They had 16 sets of 60 pieces, plus some odd scenario packs here and there. Over 900 pieces total. I think Wyrd has PLENTY of room to expand and continue over the next several years. And who knows where else they could take things if they end up creating a new faction or two at some point. I don't know that I would recommend that necessarily, as new factions typically end up feeling like they are always inferior just due to low number of available models. But, things like the Three Kingdoms theme, give some more room for expansion.

cross faction crews for the first couple of masters would change that

Nightmare master

Construct master

Beast master?

Somthing else

[tadaka]

My personal thought is just this.

Wyrd should use the single biggest thing they have going the storyline.

I would like to see them move in to a yearly storyline. Release some models that a designed for a story pack type thing. Models that move the story forward for example a res version of lady J. Keep the current models in production but for this year work on limited edition lady J res crew who only works with her. If you get her during the story arc play with her have fun but they don't expand on the crew down the road.

You get new one of a kind crews each year and you can keep adding crews with out constantly adding to an expanding powerbase.

I think the idea of hero's coming and going would help the game feel like it has a story. Make players results in tournaments effect what they do next for the story. Other games have done this sort of thing and it does a great job of getting fans who realty care about the game.

[Hansel]

This doesn't have anything to do with the minis/game, but it does have to do with Wyrd's expansion, and I'm sure they've thought of it: release novels.

[Sliver Chocobo]

This doesn't have anything to do with the minis/game, but it does have to do with Wyrd's expansion, and I'm sure they've thought of it: release novels.

I would like graphic novels

[Justin]

This is a good question.

One I have often asked myself. (being interested in the gaming trade as a whole)

For the record, I think you have it wrong about GW.

The tournament standard going up to 1850, I think, has more to do with the player base. And while many options have become cheaper points wise, you pay in other ways. (i.e. a space marine tac squad gets a "free" missile launcher but costs one more point per marine)

Regardless, the relatively small size increase in 40k can not support the growth of the company.

What supports them, is the slow rules support of their models.

Codex creep.

Codex creep sells and expands 40k. Every so often a "new" army comes out (new to most anyway, as it sometimes takes 5 or 10 years) with entirely new miniatures, and really cool rules. Everyone jumps to buy it, and within 6 months half of those armies are sitting on shelves. If GW profited only on models which the player ended up using in game, in my opinion, they would be bankrupt. They thrive on the gamers scrambling for the newest codex, getting bored, putting it on a shelf, rinse, repeat.

As for Malifaux...

Yeah. Good question.

[WECIII]

This doesn't have anything to do with the minis/game, but it does have to do with Wyrd's expansion, and I'm sure they've thought of it: release novels.

I was just thinking this afternoon that I would love to have a Malifaux novel to read between classes that I'm teaching. Novels based on the fluff in the books would be amazing. And a graphic novel series would be cool too.

[Ciaran]

Personally, I would really like to see an expansion in the area of Malifaux story element and game-play. By this I mean that since the great mission/objective rules already help each game have a sens eof story, why not capitalize that by maybe doing campaign supplements? Obviosuly this may not always be as lucrative, but you could *also* do what VtES did and package special "mission only" models that not only make the release more commercially viable but also make for a great way to test to lines and designs, as well as story-lines.

I like a lot of what you've said there. I would REALLY like a persistent campaign system, along the lines of a Wyrd version of Necromunda or Mordheim. Being able to string together Scraps and Brawls into a narrative with game mechanically supported affects might be a lot of fun. It could also be horrible... I'll admit that! Encounter and campaign packs could be a TON of fun as well. Either was it would allow for longer term story telling, which is ultimately what most gaming is.

The Mentat and I are friends, and we talk about this sort of thing a lot. Between him blaming me for him getting into Malifaux and trying to convince me he's dating someone out of state we DO actually talk about other stuff! We're both pretty business savvy, and have been involved in this industry for a while, mostly as customers.

I think that the company may end up adding more higher priced models, just not out of proportion with what's out now. I think it likely that it will get easier to field more expensive crews in that we'll have a larger pool of expensive models for certain masters to choose from. I think that a lot of this is fan based, and things like typical points values, even for tournaments, are based on meta gaming issues dictated by the community as a whole. I feel it would take a fairly consistent shift within the player community at large for Wyrd to shift, and that itch might well be better scratched with a different hypothetical Wyrd product line.

[Absolution Black]

I agree with the following:

Campaigns

Ltd Edition Models (not necessarily crews) to play in special scenarios

Novels (though instead of one big novel, I think it would work better as a collection of shorter stories)

Keeping the game at manageable levels. It helps introduce newcomers, and means the games stay fresh and exciting.

[Eddie]

I like a lot of what you've said there. I would REALLY like a persistent campaign system, along the lines of a Wyrd version of Necromunda or Mordheim. Being able to string together Scraps and Brawls into a narrative with game mechanically supported affects might be a lot of fun. It could also be horrible... I'll admit that! Encounter and campaign packs could be a TON of fun as well. Either was it would allow for longer term story telling, which is ultimately what most gaming is.

Yes, this! A system where you don't just play single matches, but where the crew and / or story evolves.

Novels is a great idea too. The fluff is awesome.

And of course an RPG! I would jump on that right away.

[LoboStele]

And of course an RPG! I would jump on that right away.

I think the world of Malifaux is PERFECT for an RPG system. I know my wife is a very casual RPG player, but the first thing she said when I started buying Malifaux stuff was "Wow, that looks like it would make a great RPG setting."

[Ciaran]

I think the world of Malifaux is PERFECT for an RPG system. I know my wife is a very casual RPG player, but the first thing she said when I started buying Malifaux stuff was "Wow, that looks like it would make a great RPG setting."

I have to say I agree here completely. I almost ran a a few sessions of a hack based on the older Castle Falkenstein system (due to its card based nature I thought it would work well). I ended up not doing it because of confusion with how to run the Control Deck, etc...

Perhaps running it with some similarities to the Fate systems would work well.

[Mentat_Canis]

I think the world of Malifaux is PERFECT for an RPG system. I know my wife is a very casual RPG player, but the first thing she said when I started buying Malifaux stuff was "Wow, that looks like it would make a great RPG setting."

I really think that you could run an RPG set-up with the current rules of the game. You just have a small starting hand at say the beginning of an encounter and everyone can use soulstones, now if you forfeit you turn you get to shuffle your deck and draw a new hand, soulstones are a rare resource and if you find them you can use them. You just have to start the game as something like a Guild Gard or a Gunsmith or a Ronin, and you add skills as you go, it would require much more roleplaying because you don't have given traits. I would like to see a system for it myself though.

Novels I think are a great idea the hardest part with that is you actually need to get talented authors to do it, that is what the black library has done and has been successful, but it also takes some of the story development out of the creators hands.

For the moment I am very happy with Wyrd and will continue to be interested in how they expand because there models are fantastic and its a great rules set now with the new cards and manual.

Ciaran I do still blame you for getting me into my at that point in time 3rd game it is now my 2nd game of choice. I also blame you for making me do so many training games recently that I haven't been able to pull out to much nasty stuff.

I want to thank everyone for there ideas and it will be a fun ride to see where it goes.