Hardest Masters to win with?

[Rathnard]

I'm curious to know what Masters people believe are, overall, the hardest to win games with? It can be the top 3-5 overall or per faction, whatever you want.

For the sake of arguement we'll include henchmen, but only those who have had their box released (so no Kaeris, Collidi or Molly - their lack of available minions make it a bit unfair to include them).

Note that I don't want this to devolve into an arguement about game balance. I still believe that every Master can be effective in the hands of a sufficiently experienced player and if you disagree, I'd prefer it to be discussed in another thread.

My thoughts;

Sonnia Cridd: Her Fire spells can do some great blast damage, but she's often burning through soulstones with confiscated lore to do so. It tends to make her quite reliant on those soulstones and hence easier to kill than you'd hope.

Marcus: Jack of all trades, Master on none. His abilities can make him fast, hard to kill, able to do lots of damage, buff his crew or mess with his opponents. But he can only do one or two of those at once, making him a tricky master to use well.

Viktorias: Their damage output is great and their ability to slingshot each other into combat gives them some good first strike capabilities. Unfortunately they're also pretty fragile and to get any SS for boosting Defensive flips, they need to drop their crew size. But even that introduces a few difficulties of its own when it comes to being out-activated by your opponent or fulfilling certain objectives.

[Justin]

I...agree?

Yeah, good evaluations.

Those along with the gremlins were all struggling masters in book 1. But the gremlins got a lot of help with the new book.

Marcus got some breaks in book 2 with the Malifaux Raptor, Shikome, and Lawyer, but as a master he is still underwhelming.

Sonnia got basically no help and the other masters surpassed her.

And Victoria got a lot of cool new models, most of which are just better with Von Schill.

Of the three you listed I think Marcus has the most potential.

[MadArcanist]

Hardest for me would be

Ophelia : She is a not-so-effective version of Perdita. I see my friend get stomped and I recently got stomped playing her. She seems to be good on paper but on the field she is really tricky to play with.

Collette : Even though I wanna get good with her. I find her overall squishy-ness of her crew and the requirement of SS manipulation over that of even Sonnia gives me a hard time (and I'm a rather good Sonnia player)

Seamus : I guess I'm just unlucky with him, but the couple times I've played with him I've gotten rolled into the ground. He just doesn't have the utility I like and with a Small starting cache and a need for corpse counters it makes it hard for him to stay a live against a true alpha strike.

[Ratty]

And Victoria got a lot of cool new models, most of which are just better with Von Schill.

Of the three you listed I think Marcus has the most potential.

I don't totally agree with this. I think the Librarian has severely increased the durability of the Viks. She can effectively take the viks from 1 wound each to full in a turn, if your lucky. That gives you far more soulstones to spend on actually killing the enemy. If you add Von Schill on top of that the Viks, Von Schill and a Librarian make a solid base that you can stick any mercenary you like onto depending on missions.

Colette can be horrific in the hands of a master, but in the hands of even a good player she can be very squishy. I kind of agree that she is a hard master to win with. You need to know all her tricks and when to use them or your going to be splatted. But If you know exactly what your doing your opponent can find it hard to kill anything.

I've managed some horrific things with Seamus. Last game I played the opponent resigned after turn 3, because I had wiped out everything but his master and had 2 more belles than I started with.

I think your right about Sonnia, I can't think of a single model in book 2 that screams I've been made with Sonnia in mind.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Ratty

[Justin]

I don't totally agree with this. I think the Librarian has severely increased the durability of the Viks. She can effectively take the viks from 1 wound each to full in a turn, if your lucky. That gives you far more soulstones to spend on actually killing the enemy. If you add Von Schill on top of that the Viks, Von Schill and a Librarian make a solid base that you can stick any mercenary you like onto depending on missions.

Colette can be horrific in the hands of a master, but in the hands of even a good player she can be very squishy. I kind of agree that she is a hard master to win with. You need to know all her tricks and when to use them or your going to be splatted. But If you know exactly what your doing your opponent can find it hard to kill anything.

I've managed some horrific things with Seamus. Last game I played the opponent resigned after turn 3, because I had wiped out everything but his master and had 2 more belles than I started with.

I think your right about Sonnia, I can't think of a single model in book 2 that screams I've been made with Sonnia in mind.

Von Schill costs 9 and has a reserve of 4, so the real question is simply, are the Viks worth 13 soul stones?

I'm not entirely convinced.

[Jonas Albrecht]

So what would bring those Masters into line with the rest? What would you recommend as a patch?

[Justin]

So what would bring those Masters into line with the rest? What would you recommend as a patch?

Marcus got a few patches. Once the raptors come out and people really figure out how to abuse the Lawyer with him, I think we could have this discussion. Until then, I'd wait.

The others basically come down to soul stones.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Marcus got a few patches. Once the raptors come out and people really figure out how to abuse the Lawyer with him, I think we could have this discussion. Until then, I'd wait.

The others basically come down to soul stones.

What if Confiscated Lore was a (2) action instead of a (0), with no soulstone cost?

[Rathnard]

So what would bring those Masters into line with the rest? What would you recommend as a patch?

Well despite his inclusion I think Marcus is fine, especially with the new Book 2 releases. He just requires a higher degree of skill than usual to play.

For the others, the easiest fix would be to add minions for them, rather than changing their rules.

An obvious fix for Sonnia would be a support minion that can give :tomes to her Ca, but it's a pretty blunt way of helping her IMO. More elegant would be minions that can combo with her spells. For instance something able to damage without killing models (like Levi's Unatural Wasting) to combo with Violation of Magic, or a guild "Silent One" that buffs friendly model's spell range or gives a to spell attack/damage. Another option would be to take advantage of every Master's natural "drain soul" ability (I can't remember the proper name)? For instance, perhaps a minion you can "Drain soul" for a Soulstone (perhaps even more than one), but doesn't result in the Wp penalty? It doesn't even need to be a bonus specific to Sonnia - other Guild Masters could use it too, but they wouldn't find it quite as useful as Sonnia would.

The Viktorias need something that gives you a reason not to take Von Schill instead. This is a bit harder since the Viks really only do one thing, melee, which overlaps somewhat with what Von Schill nan do. My initial thought was to add a merc that counts as 'Viktoria' for fates entwined. The only problem is finding a fluff-reason why that'd work, and the balance issues resulting form Sisters in Victory. Thinking about it, the latter interaction does add a whole new potential playstyle to the Viks (teleporting large chunks of your crew to a single point within 18"), so it might not be as bad as it sounds.

The next best option I can think of is to add some minion mercs that have a bonus when included in a crew with Viktoria (much like Cassandra w. Collete). It's a risky prospect though, since you don't want to force out the likes of Taelor and other Mercs as viable minions for Viktoria. It also risks backflipping on one of the Viktoria's playstyle characteristics - a lack of synergy between models.

[Justin]

For instance, perhaps a minion you can "Drain soul" for a Soulstone (perhaps even more than one), but doesn't result in the Wp penalty? It doesn't even need to be a bonus specific to Sonnia - other Guild Masters could use it too, but they wouldn't find it quite as useful as Sonnia would

Make it Hard To Kill so you can do it once it reaches one wound.

[Ratty]

Von Schill costs 9 and has a reserve of 4, so the real question is simply, are the Viks worth 13 soul stones?

I'm not entirely convinced.

They really are once you remove their main disadvantage, their low durability. Can you think of a single model that is as good as a single Vik for 6/7 points? Add to that the fact you have a triple threat. It very hard to fight against a crew which has 3 fast models each of which can take out most minions in a turn.

[Bigmike]

I agree with Ratty, I love the vikkies and happen to think that they are one of the best all around forces. Ramos on the other hand i have a hard time finding how i want to play him, though he is a side burner master compared to my other 10.

[AvatarForm]

I have no gaming experience since RP, but I always found outcasts (mostly with Killjoy) to be very difficult... especially a wicked combo of Som'er and The Hag...

[Wodschow]

Thoughts in no particular order:

The Guild Guardian is sort-of Sonnia themed..

Von Schill can't do anything in melee...? And I think he's the best minion for the Viktorias from Book2

Give the Viktorias an extra Minion that actually buffs them with magic so you get to use Fates Entwined once in a while.. Unless you Brawl them with other Masters the Librarian is the only model to take advantage of Fates Entwined.

What if Confiscated Lore was a (2) action instead of a (0), with no soulstone cost?

Seriously?

That would make her WAAY worse than she currently is.. (She's really not that bad - is she? O_o)

[Sliver Chocobo]

The best thing to give Viktoria is a third Viktoria as a minion or henchman with paired guns, give use soulstones when hired with Viktoria

Fluff wise to introduce her have her come through a tempory breach from another world during the event, when Hamlin tried to leave Malifaux

[hippieshopper]

Sonnia isn't that bad.

She's pretty brutal against Kirai.

Seamus isn't underpowered at all.

A few people at our LGS say that Ramos is kinda lacking too.

Of course the Henchmen without their own dudes.

Marcus.

As far as that goes, most of the masters aren't really underpowered at all...there are a few (whom I won't mention) that could use some considerable pruning, but Wyrd is still doing a pretty sweet job of balancing them out.

[Sandwich]

Ramos as a model by himself is crappy.

But with the Steamborg and mass swarms of spiders, he's decent.

Von Schill is 100% the best model in this game, in my opinion.

9/10 SS, Use SS, great damage, extreme mobility, extreme durability with amazing synergy with a group of models.

So ANY crew using Von Schill is immediately better off than if they did not.

Vickies without the Freikorp are really difficult to succeed at.

Yes, you can succeed at killing things, but your crew is pretty unanimously fragile (Save Bishop if you take him) but with a massive damage output (Save Hans, I don't really like him.)

They're not underpowered, no, but they can be a hassle to do good with if the cards / terrain don't favor you.

Marcus is 100% not fun for anyone I know personally.

He "Can" be the jack of all trades, but usually ends up dug deep in a niche no one is going near, and is therefore destroyed quicklike.

Colette is technical master, and a damn good one at that.

Going into a game trying to kill people with Colette is just a bad idea.

Not to mention how awesome her models look.

As for the overall most impossible?

Molly.

Both as a Henchmen and a master.

Hopefully Horrors are OP as f*ck.

[tadaka]

I would have to say for the hardest masters to win with.

Ramos. I have never played or watched this guy played where he did not get tabled.

Marcus. He is ok for some missions and crap for others. For the most part I have found the best thing you can do for him is forget the beast idea at all. Just use him to pound things and take non beast minions, well other then shikomi they are nice. Overall tho he is subpar imho.

I am sure no one will agree with me but levi would be 3rd. Once people know how to kill him he dies so easy its not funny.

[Stargazer]

@Sandwich Molly really isnt impossible in fact she is downright awesome! Uncontrolled crying is a great ability combined with her dealing wounds when winning a wp duel with a crow.. also summoning necrotic machines which then use philosophy of uncertainty. Also she's slow to die with use soulstones..... need I go on?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Sandwich I would somewhat disagree with Molly as a Henchman. I posted an interesting question in the Res'er forum that might be interesting.

Also I love Ophelia and her family and have had lots of good wins with her. The trick is not to forget your Slophualers.

I think some of the weak casters appear weak because they are not as straight forward as some. That said Marcus, Sonnia and the Vik's need help.

[Sandwich]

I just.

She's just.

It's

:/

Molly versus Von Schill.

You're paying 1 extra SS for well, Von Schill.

That's how I see it.

Really though, that fact aside,

Sure she can send a suicide totem and hope he doesn't get attacked at all before he's within 4" of the enemy master and hope to kill them and waste your SS / High cards if he can't.

But then to get a new one she's wasting both a high crow AND two CC to do so.

As Nico, this immediately throws her out the window, screw the :-fate on Defense flips, it's not worth it.

So then we move on.

Yes she's Pitiful and has a trigger to do Wd if you :crows the flip.

Problem? She's Wp 5 and you need to flip a crow to do so.

So that's only going to come into effect 2-3 times a game.

"Then Sandwich, I'll just save my high :crows for that Wp flip!"

But then you're holding yourself back SEVERELY with the intended motion of your crew.

And then it really comes down to her :-fate on Attack and Defense flips.

For Nicodem, that's situationally useful, but it's literally a 9 point sink into an occasional -fate on defense.

Which certainly IS going to increase the damage output of your PZ, but really, they're cheap, have paired Cb 7(Effectively 9) and that -2 fate on defense flips isn't going to seem all that sweet when you realize you're 9 points shy of your opponent.

So really, compare her side by side with Von Schill and that additional Soul Stone you're paying REALLY isn't bad at all.

[Stargazer]

with Nicodem yes but with Seamus she's pretty awesome and seems to compliment him nicely also I never start with a machine always summon them into your opponents lines

[Sandwich]

To each his own, my friend. :]

[Buck Dog]

I don't find the Viks underpowered at all. While they aren't top tier, they certainly aren't weak. I have all of the Mercs and the Freikorp at my disposal and going into a game I feel that I have all of the tools to take on any opponent or any strategy. Sure, some opponents (Ahem, Pandora), give them real trouble, but on their day they can make a mess out of anybody.

Admittedly Von Schill and the Librarian have helped no-end, and I think the Desperate Mercs are also going to give them a real boost.

[Dumb Luck]

Opehila is great. She can deal out buckets of damage with her triggers and also can effect her crew for the better to boot.

I would say Somer for the hardest to win with, but me thinks he's more of a support Master for the LaCroix.