Ratty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) You could post it in the henchman area for our amusement. Edited February 25, 2011 by Ratty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Ciaran: Ramos? Non-white? I'm not seeing it on the model, nor have I read anything where he has to deal with the ramifications of racism. Did you mean Marcus, who has rejected society and become a sort of noble savage? Ramos is a Spanish name. Outside a strip of the southwest and select other cities you rarely, if ever hear it. I also haven't read much of most of the abused female characters dealing those ramifications. Is this a double standard we're setting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Ramos is a Spanish name. Outside a strip of the southwest and select other cities you rarely, if ever hear it. I also haven't read much of most of the abused female characters dealing those ramifications. Is this a double standard we're setting? I don't know that I'd consider Spanish to be non-white. Plus, if we're going to be looking at racist tones, I'd say that the Ortegas have quite a bit more to deal with than Ramos. Likewise, read the descriptions for Colette, Cassandra, Kirai, and Rasputina. Their difficulties feature much more strongly than any imagined slight on Ramos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 I don't know that I'd consider Spanish to be non-white. Plus, if we're going to be looking at racist tones, I'd say that the Ortegas have quite a bit more to deal with than Ramos. Likewise, read the descriptions for Colette, Cassandra, Kirai, and Rasputina. Their difficulties feature much more strongly than any imagined slight on Ramos. What's interesting to me (as a male) is how these women have overcome their difficulties. Rasputina recently kicked December's butt and bound him to a shattered silent one. Colette and Cassandra are making pretty big names for themselves. And while it was her spirit and not her physical body, Kirai just saved Malifaux. At least that's my take on the stories in Rising Powers. Sure, these ladies have had their struggles, but they seem to be stronger for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 This is true, but it's a drop in the bucket, as there are no victimized miners to play in Malifaux. They're just in the background where they can be safely ignored, whereas the victimized women are named and play a fairly major role in the game. Yet. But for now, Crooked Men. Oh, and I agree that with the faux-Victorian era, "empowered women" would be the exception rather than the norm, but we're missing out on a lot of norms for the period--the lack of involvement of the Church, for one thing, and we're adding quite a bit of gadgetry and mythology that, at best, means we're looking at a faux-Victorian setting. We're staying away from religion on principle. She personally may not be a prostitute. She just runs a cathouse. Because, you know, she has her pride. A burlesque theater does not equate to a "cathouse". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prunesquallor Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Funny, I was just recording a segment on 'Women in Malifaux' for the podcast, and now I discover this thread. Interesting discussion here. I think Malifaux is a very interesting game in terms of how it represents women. The female characters are certainly hyper-sexualized - no question. But Malifaux is, of course, a "heroic scale" miniature game where everything is larger than life. In order to create vivid, compelling characters the game has to exaggerate, and a fantasy game seems like the perfect place to indulge in fantasies of this nature...let's face it, there's something very seductive about a sexy lady in skin-tight clothing carrying a deadly weapon. This becomes problematic, however, when almost every female character in the game follows this same blueprint. The implication becomes that in order for female characters to be compelling she must be sexy. This is the problem, and what makes Malifaux (and almost all pop culture) off-putting to some women. There are plenty of women who love the idea of sexy, dangerous women, just as some men do, but if that's the only representation going, a lot of women will be turned off the game. However, I think that depicting all women as sexy and dangerous is far less problematic than depicting all women as the passive, useless damsels-in-distress that are the classic fantasy trope, and I maintain that Malifaux gets things right in far more important ways than it gets them wrong. The women in Malifaux are powerful, compelling characters, with tons of personality and diversity. They are magic users, close-combat experts, gunslingers, witches and witch-hunters. Some rely on subtlety and cunning, other are tough-as-nails fighters who charge into close combat at the first opportunity. Some are marginalized outlaws, others are in positions of authority and leadership. This is great and extremely refreshing to see in a miniature game. Now if only the female characters had as much diversity in their physical appearance we'd really be getting somewhere (and yes, Zoraida and Abuela are a step in the right direction). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prunesquallor Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Just as a postscript, I think the most egregious example of how women are represented in miniature games is Blood Bowl. The Amazon team feels hopelessly token. It's worth noting that all the other teams are defined by their race - you've got the Elf team, the Orc team, the Human team, and than - separate and distinct from the Human team - you have the ladies team: the Amazons. It's as if women are an exotic race, as different from ordinary (male) humans as all the other fantasy races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prunesquallor Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 One more further comment and then I'll shut up: I think Zoraida is a bit of an "exception that proves the rule" in Malifaux. Her lack of porn-star proportions apparently makes her so remarkable that is has earned her the nickname "Saggy Boobs" on these very forums. I mean c'mon: she's a powerful witch who can see into the future, turn into a crow, and make voodoo dolls come alive. Let's get over her boobs already. They're not her most remarkable feature. In fact, they're probably the only realistic pair in the game! I can't help but feel that this kind of culture - in which female characters who do not conform to an outrageous standard of beauty are given demeaning and objectifying nicknames (an overwhelmingly male culture, remember) - just might be off-putting to some women. Zoraida is a great character, and she proves that you don't have to be sexy to be a compelling woman in the game, but it's a shame that as a community we essentially reduce her to her boobs with a nickname like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Footman Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) I think it totally fits the "larger than life" style of the characters. Flip open an X-Men comic. What will you see? Strong female characters in skin-tight tops and massive breasts. I've yet to hear anyone complain about that objectifying women, though perhaps I just instinctually avoid those kind of people! likewise. besides, they could always be naked, then they'd really sell well. and probably garner more eye rolling from some types Or calling it "one of the most feminist comics on the market." [Edit: responding to Mergoth.] to be honest, doubt i'd want to read it if they did call it that Edited February 25, 2011 by G. Footman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntroll Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Wow, this thread is amusing I don't know if its an "American-thing" (no offense), but people in my gaming club has no problems with cleavage and the portrayal of women in an imaginary universe, which is all about extremity with dark humour added... Of course the topic sometimes comes up in a conversation, but we usually just make jokes about it (see: Lady Justits), because we don't take a game that seriously... Though most Eastern-Europeans are less prude than the average American, and they are not politically correct at all... But really, after a feminist-friendly game, what would you want next? Children-friendly Malifaux? I think its not a coincidence that Wyrd's main target for this game are NOT children (unlike GW's, for example)... To be honest, if Malifaux was like you want it to be, I wouldn't even started it. (Yes, I'm here because of the undead hookers.) Btw you cited LadyJ as an example of the negative portrayal of women in Malifaux... I think she is on of the best "warrior woman" miniatures in the market, because it moves away from the typical chainmail bikini approach, and manages to be beautiful and deadly in the same type, without looking like a whore with a BF sword. And somehow, you always skip Sonnia Criid, who is one of the most influental women in Malifaux, and her dress is not revealing at all... Regarding the W40k rape scene diorama... I liked it. Its refreshing to see something which doesn't show killing as a glorious thing (which most 40k dioramas are about), and showing another aspect of war. Also, it doesn't show rape directly, only implies it, and it is also great from the painting and modelling aspect (c'mon, just look at the faces of those Guardsman). And my country was actually invaded many times during its histroy, by the Mongols (one of the most brutal conquerers in history), the Turks, the Germans (actually, it was a warzone for Turks vs Germans for 150 years), and the Russians/Soviets. This invasions of course featured rape and the killing of civilians, but still I don't find portraying these things in an artistic way offensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Men are, for good or ill, predisposed to competition and, for want of a better term, gaming. As far as I can tell, the cause is genetic rather than societal. How on earth are you able to tell something like that?? You have some kind of control group free of the influence of the society where men still are predisposed to competition? I believe you should publish your findings - there's huge grants just waiting for the taking Ultimately, I would prefer not to own models that would potentially awkward conversations with parents/grandparents/significant others/random bystanders/Mommy bringing little Jimmy into the game store. This is the same reason why I am not a fan of the Diaz Daemonettes or any other "revealing" miniature--game stores are not 18+ and I would prefer not having to hide my models when the folks come to visit. Do you honestly consider the Diaz Daemonettes 18+ models? Wet Nurse and things like that sure, but simple bare breasts? Wow. OK, name a miniature game, where female models aren´t "revealing".´And what about TV / The Internet? Alkemy. OK, some Khalimans could be seen as somewhat revealing but the men and women there dress basically the same, so I don't think it counts. The female Avalonians and Jade Triad members are all dressed practically. From a fluff point of view Alkemy is extremely equal when it comes to gender as well. Another example would be Hell Dorado. Other than Succubus (where revealing really comes with the territory) and the stupid nun assassin the women there are dressed practically. Check out Helle Möller or The Traveler. They are not cheesecake but still obviously women, obviously beautiful, and obviously powerful and in control. They didn't. I mentioned that the game is probably the most feminist on the market . And I stand by that. Feminism is about independence and power, not about how a woman dresses. Alkemy beats Malifaux on that front pretty handsomely. That said, I on the whole like the Malifaux design aesthetic of strong women and don't mind the occasional cheesecake (nothing wrong with occasional cheesecake IMO, when it's done suitably tastefully as Wyrd has mostly done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danp164 Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Isnt this kind of 20+ pages of serious OVER-analysis, im fairly certain the female models in malifaux werent designed to offend. TBH its nice to see a portrayl of female models that dont look.... well lets face it their are a number of companies in the model game industry that dont make very flattering models. The problem seems to be the happy medium, something I feel GW's relationship with deamonettes illustrates quite well. GW put out the so called 18+ deamonettes, people complain so they put out a series of models which look like (And im quoting this from a post on dakkadakka) "Nurgle Banged my Daughter" You can't appeal to everyone, personally my Fiance wants to get into malifaux with the showgirls box, she thinks they look pretty, so personal taste issues not gender issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Do you honestly consider the Diaz Daemonettes 18+ models? Wet Nurse and things like that sure, but simple bare breasts? Wow. You have to be 18 or older to purchase a Playboy. I don't see how changing the breasts to being teeny-tiny changes that. In fact, just imagine if Fox News ran with a story on "pornographic toys." And somehow, you always skip Sonnia Criid, who is one of the most influental women in Malifaux, and her dress is not revealing at all... Which is precisely why I don't mention her. She is irrelevent to the discussion. Sure, she's an exception. We all get that. Yet. But for now, Crooked Men. Once you add "zombie" to any character, no matter how compelling, they turn into something that society seems to have no compassion for whatsoever. That is part of why zombie games/movies are so popular of late--nobody seems to mind horrific violence against the mindless undead. Note the "mindless" there. A burlesque theater does not equate to a "cathouse". A burlesque theater in the Victorian/Wild West era, where the performers give "special dances" and are "no mere prostitutes, but highly skilled agents..." A burlesque theater does not necessarily mean a cathouse. The Star, on the other hand, is a cathouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) You have to be 18 or older to purchase a Playboy. I don't see how changing the breasts to being teeny-tiny changes that. In fact, just imagine if Fox News ran with a story on "pornographic toys." Wow... Malifaux would sell through the roof if they did that. Edited February 25, 2011 by Ratty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 You have to be 18 or older to purchase a Playboy. I don't see how changing the breasts to being teeny-tiny changes that. In fact, just imagine if Fox News ran with a story on "pornographic toys." But these days we get to see breasts everywhere. On the beach, around the pool on holiday. We don't need to be 18+ to see those. I Think the poster was trying to say naked breasts are no big deal in todays society. Playboy has a lot more than naked breasts! Which is precisely why I don't mention her. She is irrelevent to the discussion. Sure, she's an exception. We all get that. But surely in a discussion about how female characters are portrayed in Malifaux, she is relevant, exception or not? We shouldn't just focus on the 'controversial' characters to exclusion of all else. After all, she is still a character in Malifaux. A burlesque theater in the Victorian/Wild West era, where the performers give "special dances" and are "no mere prostitutes, but highly skilled agents..." A burlesque theater does not necessarily mean a cathouse. The Star, on the other hand, is a cathouse. Maybe, maybe not. I think the point was that Burlesque does not always equate to prostitution. In fact, I would say it hardly ever does, in its purest sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Isnt this kind of 20+ pages of serious OVER-analysis Probably. But I also think it is sparking some healthy debate. And I like healthy debate. As long as it stays on topic, and no-one gets offended or insulted by anyone else, I say let it run its course. Personally, I see no problem with the representation of women in Malifaux. Neither does my wife. Or two girls from my gaming group. But some people will have a problem, that's life. You can't please all of the people, all of the time. Letting both sides of the 'argument' share their views in an acceptable manner lets us all see how it affects people. We should encourage more debates on this forum, that tackle real life issues, as long as they are relevant to Malifaux in some way. Sorry, I will get off my soapbox now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 JPRoth : So you skip all thing that are irrelevant and can produce counterarguments?Man, you should be a politician! And special dance can mean anything, it is just your dirty mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 I do a mean special dance, and I can tell you its not rude. Acutely embarrassing to friends and family, no doubt, but rude no...just special! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 But surely in a discussion about how female characters are portrayed in Malifaux, she is relevant, exception or not? We shouldn't just focus on the 'controversial' characters to exclusion of all else. After all, she is still a character in Malifaux. Aparently not, who would have thunk it. Neither do miners that died due to bad working conditions. even if they were raised as zombies afterward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 A burlesque theater in the Victorian/Wild West era, where the performers give "special dances" and are "no mere prostitutes, but highly skilled agents..." A burlesque theater does not necessarily mean a cathouse. The Star, on the other hand, is a cathouse. Okay. I vowed to remain silent but I'm too weak. I wrote that line you keep misquoting and it's getting under my skin something huge. You're misinterpreting the intent, changing words out of context. They are not nor have ever been prostitutes. I believe that if you read the entire book you'll find it very clear on this point. "Special dances" are seductive, but "they are no mere prostitues" - that means - they are NOT prostitutes. Colette would never tolerate such a thing and Cassandra would kick someone's pants if they ever crossed the line. If they're prositutes then so is your mother. I still cannot help it. I don't want to play, but as long as I'm wading through the sandbox, I might as well share an anecdote. My wife has criticized some of the imagery we present, too, and she's very much against gratuitous imagery in any form. So I asked her to evaluate some of our imagery last night regarding this topic. We browsed the Online Store, the released books, and some images the rest of you are not yet aware of. Nekima, the Viktoria Swordmistriss image in the new rules book, and Lilith pushed her. But then she adored the entirety of Colette's crew and has actually read my writing and knows it and so actually knows what they're about. She gets to Ronin and loves them. Rasputina and Sonnia (especially new images, Nathan.) Perdita she thought pushed it but said, "People dress worse at the mall, though". Males are open chested with Bishop, Marcus, Johann, and Joss is skin tight with his clothes and Steamborg, possibly fitting into your suggestion of exemption status, has no problem showing his six pack. Other women of note that appealed to her were Myranda, Kaeris, Silent Ones, and the new female Guild Guard, as well as the female models in Kirai's spirits. The most offensive model in the game to her is Killjoy. Our primary characters that we keep leaning on in the storytelling are all women. Rasputina and Sonnia are the strongest characters in the fluff right now with Ramos running possibly third, although I think there's several characters running for that position. Rasputina has a broken background, but even she's not sure what the truth of it is - none of you know decisively and what you think you know might be to purposefully mislead you (and her). She alone has demonstrated the power to defy what might be the most powerful and ambitious of the Tyrant Entities. Kirai was a prostitute but now she's potentially the most powerful Res in Malifaux, capable of doing what's eluded the men. Anyone making claims against the fluff have not read it. And if you have, you should read it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 To be honest, there´s something weird at Killjoy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Okay. If they're prositutes then so is your mother. Nerdelemental wins the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 When I read the showgirl story. I did take Cassandra's "special dance" to be sexual. However I read the relationship between Cassandra and Joss to be slightly different. I thought that they might be lovers and that 'special dance' was a personal joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 They are not nor have ever been prostitutes. I believe that if you read the entire book you'll find it very clear on this point. "Special dances" are seductive, but "they are no mere prostitues" - that means - they are NOT prostitutes. Colette would never tolerate such a thing and Cassandra would kick someone's pants if they ever crossed the line. Can't argue with the creator here. Thanks for the clarification. My wife has criticized some of the imagery we present, too, and she's very much against gratuitous imagery in any form. So I asked her to evaluate some of our imagery last night regarding this topic. We browsed the Online Store, the released books, and some images the rest of you are not yet aware of. Nekima, the Viktoria Swordmistriss image in the new rules book, and Lilith pushed her. But then she adored the entirety of Colette's crew and has actually read my writing and knows it and so actually knows what they're about. She gets to Ronin and loves them. Rasputina and Sonnia (especially new images, Nathan.) Perdita she thought pushed it but said, "People dress worse at the mall, though". Males are open chested with Bishop, Marcus, Johann, and Joss is skin tight with his clothes and Steamborg, possibly fitting into your suggestion of exemption status, has no problem showing his six pack. Other women of note that appealed to her were Myranda, Kaeris, Silent Ones, and the new female Guild Guard, as well as the female models in Kirai's spirits. The most offensive model in the game to her is Killjoy. I actually tend to agree with your wife's taste, although I find Rasputina to be dressed a little oddly for her environment--too much cheesecake, not enough 'holy crap, this is cold." And I admit I haven't seen the Vickies in the new rule book. Kirai was a prostitute but now she's potentially the most powerful Res in Malifaux, capable of doing what's eluded the men. She's powerful magically, sure, but how is she in terms of her character? Uncontrollable Crying alone suggests that she's far from healthy, and her story has done little to suggest that she's a healthy, "strong" woman. I'm sure there's plans for her in the future. Quick questions: how many female characters are described in terms of their physical appearance? How many have abilities directly relating to physical attractiveness? And how many men are described as handsome or have any sort of abilities based on their good looks? But these days we get to see breasts everywhere. On the beach, around the pool on holiday. We don't need to be 18+ to see those. I Think the poster was trying to say naked breasts are no big deal in todays society. Playboy has a lot more than naked breasts! Again, I don't know which beaches or pools you go to. Female nudity, at least in the states, comes with an 18+ rating. Not sure why it'd be different if we're just talking about models here. But surely in a discussion about how female characters are portrayed in Malifaux, she is relevant, exception or not? We shouldn't just focus on the 'controversial' characters to exclusion of all else. After all, she is still a character in Malifaux. Here's the thing: she's an exception. We all know it, we all get it. We can sit there and say "But Sonnia's okay!" over and over again, or we can look at the situation as a whole. Sure, some of the female models are fine. The others are the problem. When I read the showgirl story. I did take Cassandra's "special dance" to be sexual. However I read the relationship between Cassandra and Joss to be slightly different. I thought that they might be lovers and that 'special dance' was a personal joke. I'm actually fairly certain it was a randomly named Performer that said that to Joss, not Cassandra. And Joss has been described as falling for Cassie. That said, I've yet to actually meet someone, face-to-face, who didn't think that "special dance" was a way of writing something the writers really didn't want to just state outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Oh man...Define nudity, please.Because to pools, where I go, women wear often bikini ! What a nightmare, I could see the skin ! I would rather be offended by creepyness and gore than that some female characters look femine in terms of setting. Generally speaking, women in Malifaux aren´t oversexized, compared to what kids can see in TV / MTV whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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