Masters Box-extraneous NEEDS.

[Thunder_God]

So, some boxes come unrecommended (for demoes and such), not because they're tough to handle, but because their masters really need some extra models to work properly (totems, summoned, etc.).

Some boxes come with models you don't need till later (twin nurses).

And some boxes just work better if you have some other models instead (mature nephilim > young nephilim).

So here's the question. For each caster in the game, what models do you NEED that don't come in the box? And it's ok to say for some masters "None"

Cheers.

[nilus]

I will start with the easy one

Perdita:None

Lady J: None

Sonnia Crid: None

[LoboStele]

Colette: Coryphees and Doves. Though for the sake of doing a demo, you could very easily work without them.

Ramos: None (though a case could be made that his Totem really rocks)

Dreamer: Alps and Daydreams needed

Viks: None. Though some other models (like Ronin) can work better than the box set contents. But the set itself can work well on its own.

[EricJ]

would probably be great to compile a list of both what boxes really need, but also what are good first add-ons to boxes as well

[nilus]

Good first add ons

Perdita: Abuela Ortega or the Enslaved Nephlim

Lady J: The Executioner

Not sure the best next buy for Sonnia though?

[the imp]

Rasputina is pretty solid right out of the box. Adding the essence of power and a silent one makes her dangerous as hell.

So'mer Teeth is in desperate need of another blister of gremlins, a pack of piglets, and at least two mosquitoes before he'll be really effective. I think all of the summoning masters have that problem.

[Koali]

Nicodem Needs Mindless Zombies...

Without Young Nephilim it would be difficult to grow terror tots in a Lilith crew...

Leveticus could use more Waifs and a Engine

Somer needs more Gremlins and Pigs

The Vics have a great use of Ronins

I think there should be a diffenrence betwen, what Minis you NEED and with witch minis you could pimp your crew,...

[Thunder_God]

Yes, the question is more about needs, less about "Get these for the optimal build".

And yeah, I agree Eric, but I feel the "First purchase, or two" has more information already on the boards.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Without Young Nephilim it would be difficult to grow terror tots in a Lilith crew...

A 30mm base fits perfectly atop a 40mm base.

It's what we did during the days of no Young Nephilim sculpts.

Just sayin'.

[Ratty]

A 30mm base fits perfectly atop a 40mm base.

It's what we did during the days of no Young Nephilim sculpts.

Just sayin'.

Ta I'll mention that to Jodie whose thinking of starting Lilith. That makes life so much easier.

Kirai:

Need: 2 packs of Seishin, 1 pack of gaki.

Could really do with having: an additional pack of Gaki and Lost Love when it comes out.

Useful to have: Jack Daw, additional Onryo, Shikome when they come out.

Seamus:

Need: just the box.

Could Really do with: Copy Cat Killer

Useful to have: Hanged, Dogs, Bete Noir.

[Wodschow]

Yes, the question is more about needs, less about "Get these for the optimal build".

And yeah, I agree Eric, but I feel the "First purchase, or two" has more information already on the boards.

Soeh.. Your completed list looks something like this:

Zoraida NEEDs her totem.

Kirai NEEDs more Seishin (and Gaki/Lost Love).

Nicodem NEEDs Mindless Zombies (and as many undead as you can get).

Douglas NEEDs something that isn't a nurse (Canines and Belles are nice).

Leveticus NEEDs a second Waif (and an Engine).

The Dreamer NEEDs his Daydreams (and wants more Nightmares).

Rest:

Doesn't NEED anything.

[Keltheos]

Nicodem doesn't exactly need the MZs. You can always talk your opponent into leaving the models killed on the table AS zombies. A nice way to work on his morale as well...oh, that zombie USED to be Santiago...

[Ratty]

Nicodem doesn't exactly need the MZs. You can always talk your opponent into leaving the models killed on the table AS zombies. A nice way to work on his morale as well...oh, that zombie USED to be Santiago...

Unless they kill a Mature Nephilim... that 50mm based Nephilim is 3 Mindless Zombies... Ag one wants to walk away... rip his arm off and pop it on a 30mm base if you'd be a dear.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Soeh.. Your completed list looks something like this:

Zoraida NEEDs her totem.

Kirai NEEDs more Seishin (and Gaki/Lost Love).

Nicodem NEEDs Mindless Zombies (and as many undead as you can get).

Douglas NEEDs something that isn't a nurse (Canines and Belles are nice).

Leveticus NEEDs a second Waif (and an Engine).

The Dreamer NEEDs his Daydreams (and wants more Nightmares).

Rest:

Doesn't NEED anything.

Colette doesn't need her Doves?

[Wodschow]

Nicodem doesn't exactly need the MZs. You can always talk your opponent into leaving the models killed on the table AS zombies. A nice way to work on his morale as well...oh, that zombie USED to be Santiago...

But if we're taking proxies into consideration here.. Then no models whatsoever are needed.. ... But I think that defeats the purpose of this thread, which I'm actually not really sure what is anymore. Well well..

Hmm..

I like the handle you made Ratty, that's some meaningful information, I'll give it a shot:

Rasputina:

Need: the box

Could really do with having: Essence of Power.

Useful to have: A Speedy Model (Sabertooth, Coryphée or Mechanical Rider), Silent One, A Ranged Model (Alot to choose from, remember to take Outcasts into consideration).

- Tried to do Lilith aswell, but there's just so many different models that are 'useful to have' depending on what playstyle you want with her...

Edit:

Colette doesn't need her Doves?

No, imo they're not nearly as critical as the others.

Can you win without them? Yes.

Will you want them whenever you play? Yes.

Wanted, not strictly needed - I suppose the Daydreams fall into this category aswell though, and in fact every model on the list..

The more I think about 'needs' the less sense it makes to me to talk about it as it's largely subjective.

In the end you could play any of the Starters against each other with no additions.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Wodschow

[Ratty]

I think Marcus probably needs some other stuff to play. unless you never plan to shapeshift with Myranda (which I feel loses the point of her a bit)

[Keltheos]

Well, the same holds true for the 30mm base into a 40mm base. The stats for the MZ are in the book, the dead model turned into a zombie, so...is it really proxying or better envisioning what happened? I mean, how does a Terror Tot turn into an undead cowboy?

[Ratty]

Mr Keltheos, following your reasoning can we have a new sculpt for the Flesh Golem made entirely out of dog parts.

[Keltheos]

I'll get on it.

[Amarel]

I'm actually going to go with:

Viks: Need Ronin.

It's not a case of playing optimally, but they're the one defense mechanism that the Viks have. Since the Ronin have been released there's at least one, normally two in every Vik list (even after the 'fixing'), while there are models, such as Bishop, in the box set that serve no purpose and get immediately dropped and replaced (by Ronin).

[nerdelemental]

I'm actually going to go with:

Viks: Need Ronin.

It's not a case of playing optimally, but they're the one defense mechanism that the Viks have. Since the Ronin have been released there's at least one, normally two in every Vik list (even after the 'fixing'), while there are models, such as Bishop, in the box set that serve no purpose and get immediately dropped and replaced (by Ronin).

I don't think I can remember a tactics post that I've so strongly disagreed with....

[Q'iq'el]

Well, there's a difference between what the model needs in terms of actual pewter and model card on the table, and what it needs for the crew to not be blocked from its full potential.

Speaking about masters I know, and repeating some that's actually been said:

1. Lilith:

NEEDS: Young Nephilim. Not only needs to be able to execute the full grow/mature progression, but also they are the true core of her force. Mature is her hammer she brings out at the right moment and Terror Tots are for grabbing stuff, but she can't reliably oppose opponents with those.

RECOMMENDED: A totem. Either Cherub or Primordial Magic is fine, but I feel the former is more useful as you get more experience with her.

Other than that, she can pick anything for the further expansion of the crew (as long as she keeps Tots/YN in the list) - from 2nd Mature or Waldgeist to all the great Book 2 models.

2. Nicodem

NEEDS: Mindless Zombies. It's not as easy to proxy them as it sounds, as they must be 30mm, sometimes several come out of 1 kill (as it's been mentioned) and to proxy them with opponents' models requires their approval. Now they may be over-protective of their minis or they may be good friends, but if they play summoners too and need these minis to re-summon their troops, they'll have a very good reason to refuse. So you can't count on them agreeing to that.

RECOMMENDED: 2 Vultures first and foremost. Vultures in the crew change how Nicodem operates dramatically. They let him stay with the core throng of his zombies, bolstering, healing and bringing them back from death, while the Vultures zoom around the field, feed him corpse counters and provide him with good angles for the priority targets.

He also make use of any other undead you buy them - from Crooked Men and Necropunks to Canine Remains, Flesh Constructs and Belles.

3. Colette

NEEDS: 3 Doves. She can't even do some of her most important spells without these.

RECOMMENDED: Coryphée. Sure some people think they need them, but that's only because they are so good. You don't "need" them in the sense that you cannot cast your crew's spells without them (like Young Nephilim, Mindless Zombies or Doves), hence they are just highly recommended.

[Rathnard]

Hmm, looks like a fun game...

Zoraida

Needs: Voodoo Doll.

Recommended: Mature Nephilim.

To be honest a Mature Neph is far from necessary for Zoraida, but having a melee beatstick you can obey is an excellent tool for anyone learning to use her.

Pandora

Needs: Nothing

Recommended: Teddy, Insidious Madness

The Teddy synergises really well with the starter crew and gives Pandora a 'Plan B' for killing things if the Wp duels aren't enough. The Insidious Madness helps Pandy's playstyle, but I'd recommend them mainly because they're a viable replacement for sorrows when you need non-insignificant models for certain strategies/schemes.

Lilith

Needed: Young Nephilim

Recommended: Cherub OR Primordial Magic

Young Nephilim are the missing link for the Terror Tot's growth cycle, and Lilith really loves her totem for making an extra forest.

Ophelia

Needed: Young Lacroix or Bayou Gremlins

Recommened: Slop Haulers and whichever you didn't choose from above.

To be honest Ophelia does fine with just her starter box, but with most people playing games at 25SS or above, you'll need those extra models to fill the crew out. As for the recommended, the slop hauler is simply the best supporting model you can manage for Ophelia and being able to choose between gremlins vs young la croix is important when insignificance is an issue for the strategy/scheme.

Marcus

Needed: none

Recommend: Jackalope, Silurid

If you plan to use Myranda then whatever beast you hope to transform her into would be needed. But I'm not sure she's really worth using, especially if you're just starting with Marcus. Other than that, Silurid and the Jackalope are IMO, the first and best minions you should be getting for Marcus.

[Q'iq'el]

Young Nephilim are the missing link for the Terror Tot's growth cycle, and Lilith really loves her totem for making an extra forest.

Is it right? The way I've been playing you can only have 1 forest per crew and all you get from the Totem is the extra AP Lilith gains by not having to cast the Illusionary Forest herself (which by itself is huge and makes a totem the first recommendation for her).

Or do I remember the rules wrongly and you can actually get an extra forest on the table?

[HopelessHeretic]

Ramos

NEED: electrical creation, with out this you are leaving one of ramos' most powerful tools behind.

RECOMMEND: Alyce, or the Tool kit when it comes out.

-Heretic