Business Online - From buying a new rulebook

[Apollyon]

And that sir is the first way of going out of business. Good luck with that plan and let me know how it works if you decide to go that route yourself in the future.

There are high costs,and yes it does take up room and storage, but if you don't have a tangible product in which retailers can put on a shelf in order to entice players to pick up your product then there is no reason for them to carry the accessories at all. Retailers have to have a reason to push the product as well, they aren't there just to play games even though they like to themselves. It's a business.

I wasn't, and reading back its not entirely clear, advocating never printing any rulebooks. Certainly it's a product that could and should be offered. My point was simply that the books could be distributed in pdf form at a much lower cost to the customer and overhead to the company. Free? Perhaps not. Paizo charges a nominal fee to print it's .pdfs. Hero Games does similar at a higher cost for its rulebooks (which don't have associated minis to sell). As I mentioned, I haven't done, nor do I have the information for, a full cost analysis.

We, along with any other gaming companies print and sell these books for a very obvious capitalistic reason. The book, along with everything else, is Wyrd's real product.

Walk into your FLGS, tell me how many of the products sitting on the shelves are just accessories for a game which can be downloaded for free online. Odds are none, or if so, you've walked into one of a handful of specialized stores due to their owners having taken a special interest (I know of a few across the US, not many).

As for products in a FLGS that have no rulebook behind them? Reaper Minis is a huge example (Reaper has rules supposedly, came well after the product line), GW's success in maintaining Blood Bowl specifically to the point that it spawned a computer game, bit of apples-to-oranges, but Gale Force Nine (total accessory line) is completely without even its own game. There are some out there.

More to the point, I know at the FLGS I play there are a couple of "communal" rulebooks passed around between the players. In fact, the store is quick to make a store copy available for players. Why? Because the store can either sell a rulebook to each player at the cost of pushing some players out of the potential customer base, or eat the cost of 1 rulebook and sell crews each of which needs accessories and growth. As one player put it, I can buy a rulebook or a whole new crew? Why would I buy a rulebook? The FLGS has figured out that the minis are where the money is. The rulebook? Not so much. True for every game played in the store.

Back to the books. Worth printing? First run certainly. New "Codexes" to introduce additional material? Yes. These catch the eye and hook in players to something new, but once the product is already out there? Is it worth it for players to buy an updated rulebook and thumb through trying to sort out where errata was entered and what changed?

The FLGS I'm at watched War Machine die because they changed rules and players weren't willing to shell out for new books. D&D? Dead with the new edition and cost of replacing a library of books. The reprinted PHB/DMG/Monser Manuals including errata? Dead on the shelf. 40K? Comatose because of too many new updates. Uncharted Seas...dropped because of the constant rules updates.

Great games, good minis, all gone or fading because of books.

The game that survived a rules edition re-write? Flames of War - they gave out free copies of the rulebook to everyone that could prove (by presenting it and having the cover removed) they owned an older edition rulebook. I don't know how much that cost Battlefront, but those players have since gone on to buy multiple "armies" to continue playing the game.

The next closest thing is GW's intro box sets when new editions come out. The full rulebook (minus fluff) is included with all the fancy new minis. Veteran players will buy those and resell / trade the minis out because the cost is effectively one-third the cost of buying the new rulebook and the minis (if kept) are worth more than the cost of the box. Some still buy the full book, but again... FLGS makes more sales buy eating the cost of one book for the players to use in order to sell more minis.

Just to reiterate, I have not done any sort of cost analysis myself, so maybe it is true that a retailer won't stock a line of minis for a game that has an online rulebook. Just seems with the number of folks that don't buy the rulebook for the game anyway...

[thetang22]

I'm trying to figure out what the real point of this post is.

Wyrd actually used to sell just models and accessories, much like Reaper does with their primary minis line. All I can say is that since Wyrd produced the book for Malifaux, it has seemingly been a MUCH more successful company. If there wasn't a hard copy of that book to be selling and promoting at Gencon, I don't think it would have received nearly the reaction that it did. However, when people walked by the booth and saw a nice full-color, we designed rulebook it probably gave them a sense that Wyrd was serious about this game....much more so than if they only had rules available for download.

[Apollyon]

I'm trying to figure out what the real point of this post is.

....much more so than if they only had rules available for download.

The real point is that getting an updated rulebook in .pdf form on-line could likely be accomplished quicker, at a lower cost to the manufacturer, and a lessened, if not eliminated, expense to the customer that has already invested in the game. The point is not that hard-copy rulebooks need to be entirely nixed. Your point above is correct. For new players, eye-candy in the hand is a worthwhile investment.

Using Malifaux models as an example, which makes more sense as an existing customer? Paying fifty-cents for an updated card for Hans now that his stats have changed? Or having to carry around a multi-page (albeit free to download) errata to prove it to every opponent? Or buying a whole new model to get the new card?

I love that you can get cards from Wyrd for models. Same principle here, but for full-updated rules set.

[Nathan Caroland]

I wasn't, and reading back its not entirely clear, advocating never printing any rulebooks. Certainly it's a product that could and should be offered. My point was simply that the books could be distributed in pdf form at a much lower cost to the customer and overhead to the company. Free? Perhaps not. Paizo charges a nominal fee to print it's .pdfs. Hero Games does similar at a higher cost for its rulebooks (which don't have associated minis to sell). As I mentioned, I haven't done, nor do I have the information for, a full cost analysis.

Paizo sold a metric ton of their Pathfinder book and did reprints and sold them again.

PDF's CAN be distributed, and sold. But lets be even more honest, most folks will buy it once and distribute amongst their friends or online. On top of that, most folks I know would rather have the book in hand than have to reference a screen, and if you are going to print it in full color, you'll spend more than $35 in ink to do so.

As for products in a FLGS that have no rulebook behind them? Reaper Minis is a huge example (Reaper has rules supposedly, came well after the product line), GW's success in maintaining Blood Bowl specifically to the point that it spawned a computer game, bit of apples-to-oranges, but Gale Force Nine (total accessory line) is completely without even its own game. There are some out there.

Different market, particularly if your talking tabletop war or skirmish gaming. Reaper caters to role players which is a massive market that dwarfs table top gamers in a very large way.

Don't see where you're going with GW and Bloodbowl - that's been around ages and that line hasn't been supported well in years and it is only recently that any real noise has been made about that. If you aren't going to actively push the game then there isn't much of a reason to hold back on a PDF rules. GW is also a much different beast - no real comparison there.

More to the point, I know at the FLGS I play there are a couple of "communal" rulebooks passed around between the players. In fact, the store is quick to make a store copy available for players. Why? Because the store can either sell a rulebook to each player at the cost of pushing some players out of the potential customer base, or eat the cost of 1 rulebook and sell crews each of which needs accessories and growth. As one player put it, I can buy a rulebook or a whole new crew? Why would I buy a rulebook? The FLGS has figured out that the minis are where the money is. The rulebook? Not so much. True for every game played in the store.

Fantastic. More stores should be like that. Someone still has to buy the book to play the game and most players like to have their own book.

We certainly don't twist anyones arm to purchase our product and if they would rather purchase a Crew instead of the rule book, they are most welcome.

Back to the books. Worth printing? First run certainly. New "Codexes" to introduce additional material? Yes. These catch the eye and hook in players to something new, but once the product is already out there? Is it worth it for players to buy an updated rulebook and thumb through trying to sort out where errata was entered and what changed?

So you are saying that within six months of the game being released, and growing rather nicely, that the book and everything about it should be given away for free?

We're not offering an updated book at this time. Any reprints we have done or are doing are of the original book and it is because they are selling. We obviously wouldn't reprint if that wasn't the case and we don't buy in small quantities. More to the point, we've publicly stated we are not doing a print of a book with the errata rules any time soon as we're sure something else will be found or we can clarify something just a bit more and go from there. Jumping the gun now would just be plain idiotic, about the same as giving away the game book as a PDF.

When we do offer the updated rules in print, there will be a goodly bit more in the book than just updated stats and wording and enough content within the book that will interest both new and old players. We're not into regurgitation.

The FLGS I'm at watched War Machine die because they changed rules and players weren't willing to shell out for new books. D&D? Dead with the new edition and cost of replacing a library of books. The reprinted PHB/DMG/Monser Manuals including errata? Dead on the shelf. 40K? Comatose because of too many new updates. Uncharted Seas...dropped because of the constant rules updates.

Great games, good minis, all gone or fading because of books.

Again, your making statements about games that have been on the market for years, from multi-million dollar companies who's bottom line is rather healthy regardless as for every one store that drops off, another two pick it up. Player base has a lot to do with it as well, you can literally have one player carry a location due to availability, interest and social aspects of the game, etc. Quite a few factors involved.

The game that survived a rules edition re-write? Flames of War - they gave out free copies of the rulebook to everyone that could prove (by presenting it and having the cover removed) they owned an older edition rulebook. I don't know how much that cost Battlefront, but those players have since gone on to buy multiple "armies" to continue playing the game.

Also a great plan, and also a very large company, and also again wondering what the point is as we haven't done another edition of the game.

The next closest thing is GW's intro box sets when new editions come out. The full rulebook (minus fluff) is included with all the fancy new minis. Veteran players will buy those and resell / trade the minis out because the cost is effectively one-third the cost of buying the new rulebook and the minis (if kept) are worth more than the cost of the box. Some still buy the full book, but again... FLGS makes more sales buy eating the cost of one book for the players to use in order to sell more minis.

Different beast and different market strategy - also don't believe those books are offered as a free PDF so that gets a bit away from your original point.

Just to reiterate, I have not done any sort of cost analysis myself, so maybe it is true that a retailer won't stock a line of minis for a game that has an online rulebook. Just seems with the number of folks that don't buy the rulebook for the game anyway...

I'm curious about the 'number' of folks you mention. Just your location or is there a forum somewhere dedicated to folks being upset about not having a free PDF of Malifaux and swearing never to buy the book. I'm genuinely curious.

[higherbrow]

The Malifaux rulebook is a great buy in my opinion. I'd like to see another printing with all the errata and FAQ and what not, but A) I don't understand the business side at all. If business folks say it's not cost-effective or would have negative impacts, I'm willing to trust them, and doing a second printing WOULD require a lot of man-hours that could be spent preparing the minis that aren't yet released, which I hope is a higher priority, given the fact that the errata and FAQ are available online.

Not sure why everyone's frothing at the mouth for a new rulebook when the mini line isn't done. And considering errata and FAQ can easily be included in an expansion...well, let's just say that I'd so much rather spend my money on an expansion and get that stuff in print that a second rulebook and not get an expansion.

[Apollyon]

So you are saying that within six months of the game being released, and growing rather nicely, that the book and everything about it should be given away for free?

Nope, at least not the intent. Discussion originally started based on the thread of "would you buy a new edition rulebook". Which brought me to a point of, if it is a second edition of an existing game why not make a pdf of the base game rules available. The intention was more of a question about the profit to be made by selling minis vs profit in books.

If the profit margin is there for the books, then that would answer my original question of why not offer a pdf of the Rules (free-or at some cost less than print) to get more players involved and buying the minis for the game.

I'm curious about the 'number' of folks you mention. Just your location or is there a forum somewhere dedicated to folks being upset about not having a free PDF of Malifaux and swearing never to buy the book. I'm genuinely curious.

Perhaps a bit of an over-reaction, as I don't remember mentioning folks being upset about not having a free PDF of Malifaux or swearing never to buy the book, but...

Of the dozen or so players at the FLGS I play at, approximately 1 in 4 have the rulebook. Most have multiple crews and are continuing to buy more because the models are excellent, the game is great, and the cost is good. Might be just the location as I have not visited other stores to play.

[Rathnard]

Where I am, I'm pretty sure every Malifaux player I've met has had their own copy of the rulebook. Personally, I like having a physical book to hold, rather than a PDF.

I really don't see anyone being driven away by the cost of buying the Malifaux rulebook. For starters, it's a great quality product for what you're paying, from the ruleset to the background and awesome artwork. Malifaux also happens to have a VERY cheap startup cost. I spent AU$100 on my crew, the rulebook and a deck of cards and that's all I'll need for a while until I decide to get another 1-2 models (although I gotta figure out Pandora first ).

By comparison, it costs about the same just to buy the rules and an army book for GW's Warhammer/40k. Warmachine is cheaper than GW's games of course, but at a guess I'd say it still costs a good AU$150 to buy your battlegroup + rules? And that'll probably require some decent expanding too. I'm sure there's still cheaper tabletop games than Malifaux, but it's still definitely at the low end of startup costs.

Just a final anecdote; When I was playing Malifaux at the local club last Tuesday night, we had 2-4 other people sitting at the table reading through my and my opponents rulebooks. They were all impressed with the game and I'm pretty sure at least 2 of those 4 will be picking up a crew of their own.

So there ya go, just having the rulebook around can draw new players into the hobby.

[n0signal]

If a new edition rulebook does come out at any time in the far future, can we pretty please have a hardcover option available? Even if it's limited edition or something.

[Omadon]

I'm probably just parroting a few oppinions here, but I'd like to add - pretty much everybody at my store that plays (Bar one guy, who lives with me ) owns his own copy of the rulebook, or is planning to in the not too distant future, and if you ask me. With this game taking it's first real steps, I'd be surprized if they put valuable resources into sorting out a new book with old content when they could be putting it into making a new book with new content.

Also - right, get this. The information you want that's different is in the errata document. Print that off, staple it to your current book, and vuala - you have an up to date rulebook. Who would really read a .PDF version anyway? I can't imagine stopping a game to run up to a PC and look something up. Well - I can, but I wouldent want to. And having the information that you need that's different interwoven into a whole sodding rulebook so that printing it out requires you to buy a new toner cartridge would be somewhat prohibitive.

[Wombats]

These threads (all three of them) are a bit bizarre.

There is certainly no demand for a re-print in our neck of the woods...

...and most people posting are of a similiar opinion.

I own two so I can keep one lent out to friends and still play.

The only player I know who doesn't own a copy is my flatmate.

It's unusual to have a forum where the developers are willing to respond.

The original question has been answered quite thoroughly.

We're pretty lucky to have Nathan, Eric & company's ears.

Maybe use it for something more productive?

I have a cunning plan...

If we spread seditious rumours about what is in the upcoming expansion...we may get tidbits of information as they correct us with real sneak previews!

I'm off to make another penguin thread...Bozo the WonderPenguin will ride again!

On his Steam Powered Pogo-Unicycle!

[Major_Gilbear]

Gotta say, I agree with Nathan's posts, and his assessments seem pretty much spot-on to me. I will always get a rulebook for games I play for example, and my gaming friends all do too. Seriously, how can you play any kind of competitive TTG without being able to look up rules in your own time when you need to?

If a new edition rulebook does come out at any time in the far future, can we pretty please have a hardcover option available? Even if it's limited edition or something.

I 100% agree with this. I don't mind paying a fair premium for hardback rules, as the books are far more durable and easier to read. Plus, if the hardback(s) could have a few ribbon-style bookmarks sewn into the spine too, that'd set a new standard for rulebooks generally IMO.

[...] I'm off to make another penguin thread...Bozo the WonderPenguin will ride again!

On his Steam Powered Pogo-Unicycle!

No Penguins please -steampunk or otherwise- as we have enough on these boards already!

[ork56]

snip..

1) Different market, particularly if your talking tabletop war or skirmish gaming. Reaper caters to role players which is a massive market that dwarfs table top gamers in a very large way.

2) So you are saying that within six months of the game being released, and growing rather nicely,

1) I am amazed that the market for FRP minis is bigger than TT - I would never have guessed. I wonder where they are all hiding? (btw Im not disagreeing with you)

2) great to hear that you are happy with the way Malifaux is going. Hope its in line with your business plan. The vibe does seem quite good, but 'straight from the horses-mouth' feedback cant be beaten.

[EricJ]

Just to chime in here really quickly.

As Wyrd is still a very small company, there is always the core issue of simple allocation of man hours. At the moment, Nathan is working much longer than a typical work day to make sure we can grow Malifaux's popularity and get it in front of as many people as we can (dealing with distribution), and making sure we can get done all the minis so that the first book has EVERY miniature released for it in less than a year. Something which I think is pretty impressive considering there are stats for 100+ minis in the book. I know I'm basically working from the time I wake up to the time I go to bed (ask my Wife, she tells me I need a vacation every day!), working on the expansion for Malifaux, to make sure it's ready to go almost immediately once we're done with everything from book one. Our goal is not to have any long breaks between new Malifaux products, and never let things sit too long and get stale. Of course we're both in charge of a large number of other things as well.

Basically, the decision was made to keep pushing forward with Malifaux, and while we wanted to make sure to provide a comprehensive FAQ and Errata, the idea of backtracking at this point to take the time, money and loss of momentum to re-release the first book would be a mistake I believe, since significant sacrifices would have to be made in terms of other products (miniatures and expansions and other unnamed projects ). That is not to say we don't fully intend to give a completely redone and polished core rulebook in time, because we very much intend to. However, at just the 6 month mark for a new game, I don't even believe we've fully explored all the possible issues that would need to be fixed, meaning any revision now, would just need another...and another, etc... So give it time, but don't hold your breathe, it will all be done in it's proper time.

So basically, our goals put simply: To continue fully supporting Malifaux in every way we can, to provide new minis, and in turn new books, all in a very timely manor. We will do our very best to solve any issues that arise in terms of the rules, or miniatures, and we take this very seriously, down to a per-customer level. Continue to grow Malifaux to find new players.

Hope this answers some questions about things at Wyrd

Eric

[Justin]

I know I'm basically working from the time I wake up to the time I go to bed...

I went ahead and put your problem in bold.

Obviously, you should work through the night.

I'm kind of sorry I started that thread now. I was just curious what other people thought, not trying to make any demands. Well, I suppose now I know...

Edited February 5, 2010 by Justin

[Wombats]

making sure we can get done all the minis so that the first book has EVERY miniature released for it in less than a year.

Woooohoooo! Hanging out for the Doppelganger.

Our goal is not to have any long breaks between new Malifaux products, and never let things sit too long and get stale.

This makes me a happy marsupial.

[Sturm88]

If a $35 book every 2 years or so is going to break your bank, you shouldnt be playing a mini's game. Even if the game is as mini laxed as Mal is.

[brucemanning]

I liked the hardback version of Confrontatioin V3. I think the hardback rules book last longer (if bound properly). Keep up the good work Wyrd :-)