Apollyon

Much like a lot of Malifaux it depends on your mission and the terrain. Put some Hazardous terrain on the table and then watch Bishop pick-up Killjoy and toss him into Kill/Kill/Kill. Definitely worthwhile. I don't know that he's 2 Ronin good, but he's definitely a good utility guy for making the rest of your models far more effective. Consider (1) charge, toss bad guy next to his friend. (1) Charge throw another body into the pile-up. Melee Expert toss the third. Now activate Viki and Whirlwind... ewww... Bishop alone? Not worth 11ss. Bishop as an enabler? Worth it most of the time.

You really need to "work" Bishop for him to show his worth, but with practice he becomes a real workhorse. Some cool things he can do... (Melee Expert) Hit Target, throw it toward a Viki. (1) Charge said victim, throw it toward Viki. (1) Charge said victim, throw it toward Viki. Suddenly the poor victim is way out of position. Also works nice around hazardous terrain, where he can throw the victim(s) into free damage, even if said Victim is Killjoy. Land a few good punches and anyone softens up then Bishop is a pain to have to kill. Put him in places where your opponent would really rather target your Ronin or Viks. Taken by himself, he's not much. What he really needs is someone to play with. Imagine the toss and charge scenario above when Hamlin is around. Poof! you've gone from the middle of the board to off the table. Just takes a good amount of practicing to get to where you're comfortable with his variety of abilities.

Nope, at least not the intent. Discussion originally started based on the thread of "would you buy a new edition rulebook". Which brought me to a point of, if it is a second edition of an existing game why not make a pdf of the base game rules available. The intention was more of a question about the profit to be made by selling minis vs profit in books. If the profit margin is there for the books, then that would answer my original question of why not offer a pdf of the Rules (free-or at some cost less than print) to get more players involved and buying the minis for the game. Perhaps a bit of an over-reaction, as I don't remember mentioning folks being upset about not having a free PDF of Malifaux or swearing never to buy the book, but... Of the dozen or so players at the FLGS I play at, approximately 1 in 4 have the rulebook. Most have multiple crews and are continuing to buy more because the models are excellent, the game is great, and the cost is good. Might be just the location as I have not visited other stores to play.

I think its 2 ronin minimum, they are just too good to miss (and the models look sweet) regardless of points. After that if you have 2-5 Soulstones you should be fine. If you get in dire straits you can supuku one of the ronin for more SS.

I played that list once or twice. I'm not sold on the CG being better than Bishop to take some heat off the Viks. Also the SoC has trouble keeping up with whichever Viktoria you are making Fast which can be a real problem.

The real point is that getting an updated rulebook in .pdf form on-line could likely be accomplished quicker, at a lower cost to the manufacturer, and a lessened, if not eliminated, expense to the customer that has already invested in the game. The point is not that hard-copy rulebooks need to be entirely nixed. Your point above is correct. For new players, eye-candy in the hand is a worthwhile investment. Using Malifaux models as an example, which makes more sense as an existing customer? Paying fifty-cents for an updated card for Hans now that his stats have changed? Or having to carry around a multi-page (albeit free to download) errata to prove it to every opponent? Or buying a whole new model to get the new card? I love that you can get cards from Wyrd for models. Same principle here, but for full-updated rules set.

I wasn't, and reading back its not entirely clear, advocating never printing any rulebooks. Certainly it's a product that could and should be offered. My point was simply that the books could be distributed in pdf form at a much lower cost to the customer and overhead to the company. Free? Perhaps not. Paizo charges a nominal fee to print it's .pdfs. Hero Games does similar at a higher cost for its rulebooks (which don't have associated minis to sell). As I mentioned, I haven't done, nor do I have the information for, a full cost analysis. As for products in a FLGS that have no rulebook behind them? Reaper Minis is a huge example (Reaper has rules supposedly, came well after the product line), GW's success in maintaining Blood Bowl specifically to the point that it spawned a computer game, bit of apples-to-oranges, but Gale Force Nine (total accessory line) is completely without even its own game. There are some out there. More to the point, I know at the FLGS I play there are a couple of "communal" rulebooks passed around between the players. In fact, the store is quick to make a store copy available for players. Why? Because the store can either sell a rulebook to each player at the cost of pushing some players out of the potential customer base, or eat the cost of 1 rulebook and sell crews each of which needs accessories and growth. As one player put it, I can buy a rulebook or a whole new crew? Why would I buy a rulebook? The FLGS has figured out that the minis are where the money is. The rulebook? Not so much. True for every game played in the store. Back to the books. Worth printing? First run certainly. New "Codexes" to introduce additional material? Yes. These catch the eye and hook in players to something new, but once the product is already out there? Is it worth it for players to buy an updated rulebook and thumb through trying to sort out where errata was entered and what changed? The FLGS I'm at watched War Machine die because they changed rules and players weren't willing to shell out for new books. D&D? Dead with the new edition and cost of replacing a library of books. The reprinted PHB/DMG/Monser Manuals including errata? Dead on the shelf. 40K? Comatose because of too many new updates. Uncharted Seas...dropped because of the constant rules updates. Great games, good minis, all gone or fading because of books. The game that survived a rules edition re-write? Flames of War - they gave out free copies of the rulebook to everyone that could prove (by presenting it and having the cover removed) they owned an older edition rulebook. I don't know how much that cost Battlefront, but those players have since gone on to buy multiple "armies" to continue playing the game. The next closest thing is GW's intro box sets when new editions come out. The full rulebook (minus fluff) is included with all the fancy new minis. Veteran players will buy those and resell / trade the minis out because the cost is effectively one-third the cost of buying the new rulebook and the minis (if kept) are worth more than the cost of the box. Some still buy the full book, but again... FLGS makes more sales buy eating the cost of one book for the players to use in order to sell more minis. Just to reiterate, I have not done any sort of cost analysis myself, so maybe it is true that a retailer won't stock a line of minis for a game that has an online rulebook. Just seems with the number of folks that don't buy the rulebook for the game anyway...

I have to ask... and this is a constant question for every gaming company... Why keep printing and selling these books? If the cost of printing and storing, shipping and stocking is so high, just put the pdf of the book out there and let people print it themselves. Give the rules away. Let people buy the minis and accesories - Wyrd's real product. Unless there are IP issues with letting the core rules go for no charge.

Might want to consider using the 2 extra SS in the 2nd list for another vulture. That way you can send both forward and sac 1 to bring in Killjoy. As for canine remains, I think using McMourning's zombie chihuaua as a canine remains is hilarious. "Mortimer, have you seen my dog?" "Oh, yeah boss, Nicodem was taking it out for a walk..."

Here's (http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=113413#post113413) a Battle Report of my last skirmish against the Ortegas. You must bring Mindless zombies. Their basically free and keep Nic alive from the bullets that will be whipping his way. I think having 2 Punks, 2 Necros, and 2 Constructs should cover most of the rest of your needs.

“Dammit, get off!” The twin crack of the convict gunslinger’s revolvers sent birds scattering in every direction out of the nearby trees. The Nurse that had been relentlessly trying to apply a bit of unwanted bedside manner collapsed in a heap at his feet. “Crazy bitch,” the gunslinger thought pulling the last of the woman’s needles from his leg and looked around, trees obscured his vision beyond a few yards. “Oh crap, where’s Nicodem?” An uncanny howl in the distance and a familiar “Sqwak!” of the necromancer’s vulture showed him the way. He moved slowly through the underbrush, revolvers out in front of him in case one of Nicodem’s creations mistook him for lunch. Suddenly the sound of more gunshots split the air ahead of him, but he couldn’t see the source. Ahead through the trees Perdita Ortega feathered the hammer on her own revolver the bullets whipping through the forest and around trees and shrubs to slam into their intended target. The desiccated remains of a small, but vicious looking dog were put back to rest. “Come on Ortega’s let’s round ‘em up and finish ‘em off. I’ve found Ras…” Her sentence was cut off as another necrotic abomination slammed to the ground nearby, reaching for the bound form of the ice witch that lay at the gunwoman’s feet. “You ain’t going nowhere with that,” she spat at the abomination. Another zombie rose where the dog had fallen, its blade slicing at the air and drawing Perdita’s attention away just long enough for the Necropunk to leap back over the jutting rock from where it come, the limp form of Rasputina tossed like a sack of potatoes over its shoulder. “Oh no you don’t. Papa get that witch! The rest of you with me.” The whole Ortega crew leapt into action, bullets splitting the air. Papa sprinted around the boulder cornering the Necropunk and reaching for a stick of dynamite at his side. Perdita fired at the walking dead around her, first putting down a second dog and then the Punk Zombie. As the zombie’s blades clattered to the ground, the ghostly figure of Bete Noire stepped out from behind one of the trees, licking at her lips. Nino caught the movement out of the corner of his eye and let lose, cutting the woman in half with his fire. Francisco scanned the forest for more targets eventually spotting a vulture perched atop the rock outcropping. A single crack rang out and the carrion bird’s carcass toppled to the ground at Perdita’s feet. “Alright,” Perdita called out reaching for her belt to reload, “move up, help Papa with that last one!” Roland crept quietly forward through the trees, it didn’t seem the Ortega’s had noticed him yet and he was just fine with that. He still couldn’t see where Nicodem had gotten to, but judging by the number of bodies lying around and the number of Ortegas still standing, this wasn’t looking like a winning gamble. Even as the man counted his odds, the dead rose again, two of the corpses merging together to form a single, massive construct that made the gunslinger shiver. It didn’t matter how many times he saw these Flesh Constructs of Nicodem’s they still sent shivers down his spine. The gunslinger considered laying down some suppressive fire to keep the Ortega’s busy, but decided to keep his head down and watch. The Construct reached out with one massive fist grabbing hold of Perdita, its other slammed downward on the woman’s head. There was an audible crack and the creature tossed the woman aside like a rag doll. Shambling toward Nino. Unaware of the fate of his cousin, Papa Ortega lit off the dynamite and blasted away at the Necropunk. The creature faltered and slammed back against the cold stone behind it. A black cloud of energy engulfed the necrotic creation, closing its wounds. Papa Loco coughed, the cloud drawing the life out of him. In a final act of defiance he lit one more stick of dynamite. Parts scattered about as the blast sent him hurtling into a nearby tree and blew the Necropunk to pieces. The blast set Nino and Francisco into motion, Nino caught sight of a glint to his right and snapped a shot in the direction. Roland tried to pull his head back around the tree in front of him. Too late he thought, “Oh crap, maybe they do know I’m here,” and as the pulled slammed into his head darkness consumed him. Francisco gunned away at the Flesh Construct, letting out a whoop as the thing stumbled and fell. His celebration was cut short as the creation re-knit and rose back up to its feet. Another of the walking dead shuddered, reaching down to claim a pair of fallen blades at its feet. Out from behind one of the trees, Nicodem stepped and glanced about. “You’ll pay for killing my pet, Ortega,” the necromancer taunted before waving a frail hand in Francisco’s direction. The dead straightened and a dark flame seems to burn in their eyes. Clouds of death enveloped both of the Ortega cousins, setting them to coughing and sputtering. A final barrage of gunfire cut down a trio of zombies around the necromancer, but it did little to halt the advancing dead. There was a wailing and a gnashing of teeth, then the forest was silent again. Nicodem, 2 Canine Remains, Punk Zombie, Bete Noir, Convict Gunslinger (Assassinate, Army of the Dead, Hold Out) Perdita, Nino, Francisco, Papa Loco (Treasure Hunt, Bodyguard-Perdita, Hold Out) Turn 1 - Perdita, the Remains, and a Necropunk all rush forward to the treasure. Everyone else advances through the forest out of sight. Vulture lands atop some terrain getting LoS to Perdita and the corpse. Perdita guns down one of the Canine Remains. It is promptly raised as a Punk Zombie that Slice and Dices Perdita. Turn 2 - Nicodem wins initiative. Necropunk grabs the Treasure Counter and Leaps away over an intervening rock outcropping. Ortegas companion activate, gunning down the Zombie, the second Remains, a poor-choice placement of Bete Noir, and the Vulture. Papa Loco runs around the outcropping to corner the Necropunk. Nicodem activates raising all of the corpses as Mindless Dead and converting two of them into a Flesh Construct with a lucky flip. That Constructs slams Perdita causing her to burn a soulstone to prevent death. Turn 3 - Nicodem wins intiative again. Perdita spends her second soulstone to cheat the initiative, but still loses. Flesh Construct crushes Perdita accomplishing Assassinate. Ortegas companion activate, Head Shotting the Convict Gunslinger that had finally gotten into range and putting down the Flesh Construct. Papa Loco goes out with a bang during his fight with the Necropunk. Nicodem raises the corpses, and again crafts a Flesh Construct to engage the remaining Ortegas. The Flesh Construct puts a beating on Nino, he's on his last legs. Turn 4 - Ortegas win the initiative. Nicodem pays a soulstone to cheat, taking back the initiative. One Mindless Zombie is converted to a Punk Zombie and Decay drops both Ortegas to their final wounds. Ortega's companion activate, but only Nino manages to disengage (to be fair we let him) and gun away at Nicodem. Three dead zombies nearby Nicodem absorbed the shots at the Ressurectionist Master and then it was over. Final score: Nicodem - 8, Perdita - 0 I was really worried the whole of this game as I completely failed to recognize the threat of all the Ortegas simul-activating. Nasty. The forest negating the Convict Gunslinger while having only minimal effect on the Ortegas hurt as well. In the end, it was the lucky flip on turn 3 to get the First Construct up that turned the game around or it was going to be a steam rolling.

I use a similar list, replacing one Punk Zombie and a Necropunk with four Canine Remains. That's a whole 'nother Flesh Construct laying around right there. With Nicodem it seems that the more the merrier is the case. Crunch all you want, he'll make more. As long as he can keep up.

Two seperate effects. You are sac'ing the Vulture to summon Killjoy, not to summon Bete. Bete's ability allows her to be placed when any living/undead model is killed or sac'd. I would not think you could sac one creature to summon two models that each required you to sacrifice a model in order to be placed. Bete doesn't require the crew to sac a model, just that someone (in any crew) dies.

Except that neither Bete nor Killjoy are in the starter box...

I think if you have a blister of Necropunks, a blister of Punk Zombies, and two Flesh Constructs you should be in good shape. My first summons is generally a Punk Zombie of a corpse of my own. Then that zombie eats it taking one or two minions with them. That's the first Flesh Construct. Depending on how the carnage turns, you might be on the slow and steady pace of cranking out Punk Zombies off single corpses or be glad for the second Construct when there is total carnage. As mentioned above, Necropunks can be useful later in the game to handle objective grabs/denial. Belles and Canine Remains are cheap, bring them in your base Crew, then summon up the bigger guns. Just be careful with your card management or you could find yourself well understrength against some opponents.