Golden Daemons and countries.

[King Ulrik Flamebeard]

Ok first off before I add anything I have to say I am not really in the position to critisize the painters work or painters themselves or the events. I do not know GD painters or winners as such, I am not at a level to enter and win one (or get close to) nor will I see myself doing so for a while yet. This is just an observation I have made from looking at posts and such online.

Ok, now that is over..

It is me or do the Europeans view themselves, or indeed are viewed as being, superior when it comes to the prestige of this event? Looking at the recent batch of events taken place (Alatanta, LA, France) and I have noticed that the none EU ones really take a beating, mainly they are viewed that they are easy to win and not much of a competition. This true? Why so?

I mean, do people belive that those entering do not put a large ammount of work into their entrees? Or that the judges lack the skill and knowledge to choose 'decent' stuff over others? Really? Do you? I have seen pictures from all three events, including the slayer sword winners at all three and while really above my skill I do agree that some are not up to par with others. The Wood Elf Stag looking miniature at one comes to mind here, good but slayer sword winner?

Or maybe the Europeans are just stuck up and refuse to believe that any other country could be as good as they are? Admittedly the pictures we see from GW are not the best and it is well known that most miniatures loose a lot in translation, so to speak but does this mean they are crap, that they are not worthy of a Daemon.

So, what do *you* think? Is there some sort of elitisium in the events, dependant upon the countries? If so, which one os the best and hardest to win/place in?

KU

[Nathan Caroland]

*crickets sounding in the night*

Heh, wusses, no one wants to get into this debate I can see. I'll toss in on it.

I've seen this discussed elsewhere, publically and privately and although I do hate some of the elitist feelings of some of the europeans tend to put out, the shows tend to be a damn sight more interesting to me.

For instance, the France GD that just recently occured at the same time the LA GD did, was a marked difference to me. Frankly, I thought there was more thought and conversions put into the work than there were in the US ones - one in particular was the space marines fighting in a space hulk against tyranids - that just blew me away. Same with the guy with the lantern against the snake chick.

I think LA, Chicago and Balitmore are probably some of the best ones in the US to go to and can get every bit as interesting but in general everything is spread out quite a bit. In Europe, everything is relatively close and the travel can be rather quick - I mean hell, there are several countries you can put into Texas alone, which is a single state in the US if you need to get a general view on it. Being that everything is a bit closer, I think you have a lot of talent hitting all the shows that you can.

There also seems to be an effort to move things more as an 'art' there where as here it seems in general folks take it as a 'game'. Atleast that is how the general folks that I've talked to see it as.

When it comes down to taking pictures and the like as well, I think the staff in the US is either not qualified or just in too much of a hurry, as the pictures of the entries in Europe seem to be given some more time and effort - take EricJ's recent Gold win in the LOTR category. The GW picks look like crap - I can paint better than that - atleast that is what I would tell myself seeing that in a magazine or online. Then you get the pictures from Eric, who has taken time to diffuse the light and setup his photo station with some care, and you can see the careful blending and the time that went into the piece. I think the EU folks might have a leg up there too as it appears that someone there atleast knows how to take pictures.

Overall, I would say you have a higher concentration of painters in the EU vs. the states, or perhaps more organized. There are several US painters I would like to see going over the the French or UK GD and think they would do very well.

If I'm not mistake, Cedric was telling me the other day that there are some differences as well in the contests, base sizes, etc, though I might very well be mistaken there.

[Jabberwocky]

I would have to agree with the good father on this one. I think as a general rule, the European GD's are of higher quality than the ones in the US. Certainly, there are extremely talented painters here in the US, but it seems as though many of them don't paint (at least as much) for competition. This year was Eric's first entry into the world of GD competition. I don't think Jen Hailey does much competitive painting anymore. Many of the very good painters are now on the convention circuit and are busy giving classes at all these cons. Others are staff painters for various companies and either don't have the time or are perhaps forbidden by contract to paint GW stuff for competition. The other thing the I have read about with the Europeans are "teams". The French guys and the Spanish guys and the English guys go en masse to the various GD competitions. I think there may a desire to outperform the other countries, which fuels the creative fire as it were.

[Ritual]

I have stayed clear from this topic on CMON, where I feel things easily get out of hand. Here, though, I think I can air my personal view on this matter. First of all I'd like to point out that I've never attended a GD show in person and everything I say is based on personal opinion and second-hand information.

To claim European artists are better per se, than American ones is stupid (and I'm not quite sure that's what people have been claiming either). It's just that a bunch of the currently active top painters happen to be European, and as Nathan said, they do travel around to most of the European GD shows, thus raising the bar all over. I think knowing that Allan Carasco or Jeremie Bonamant, for instance, are showing up pushes people to outdo themselves. Also, the high attendance level of top painters means that many aspiring top painters get to see their work in real life, talk to the painters etc., thus learning a lot in order to reach that level themselves. And... don't forget that there's a large number of high-standard non-GW related events in Europe as well where many of these painters meet up and there's an increasing 'mixing' of the fantasy/sci-fi scene and the historical scene.

Another point I think is worth mentioning is that the American mini-painting scene, at least to me, seem quite firmly rooted in classical fantasy D&D-style minis. I think this results in a more conventional style of painting (which doesn't say anything about the quality, mind you). In Europe there's been a large number of mini companies doing more OTT stuff and alternative things which gather people with a more diverse sense of aestethics into the scene.

So, what I'm saying is that the difference to me seems to be a matter of how the painting community works. Different styles, different views on aestethics, and maybe foremost the closeness of the community.

My two cents.

[Skya]

*insert rant mode*

I dont know anything about the European GDs, but I will *not* be going to another American one.

My first GD was Chicago 2003. I went with a bunch of my painter friends and we hung out and I entered my dark elf bolt thrower. It was kinda exciting it being my first major competition and all, but it was absolutely deafening, there was nothing for someone who just painted to do except oogle the emtires, and teh looks I got reminded me of what it must have been like to be a female gamer in the 80s. You'd have thought I was some kind of freak. Oh my god, it's a girl! Most immature crowd of gamers I've ever been around. Anyways the judging was just plain screwy. (Keep in mind this is coming from someone who took a gold that year.) It's redicuously biased towards what I like to call the Games Workshop style, (that is to say highly cartoony) and very wieghted towards the new models that just came out and very against basic troop models being displayed as single models. Liliana Troy painted a drop dead gorgeous high elf musician that she entered in single and I'm absolutel positive that the two reasons it didnt place were that it used non metalic metals and it was a troop plastic troop piece. There were many other judging vaguaries, but that was the one that stuck out in my mind the most.

So anyways, my bolt thrower took a gold that year and they took a bunch of pictures and used it for their catalog piece. The first year that the piece was in the catalog they not only mangled my last name Myereholts or something else rediculously off base, but they got my friggen *GENDER* wrong. Do they have anyway to remotely correct this? Of course not, not even a nice little these are all the artists names we screwed up this year section on their website. (Of which tehre were a lot of mistakes. There's liek absolutely no respect for their fanbase when you cant even get names printed in the catalog correctly.) The next year they removed the little side blurb that referenced me as a guy but they *still* got my last name wrong. It's Meyer, guys. NOT Meyrs. So yeah I was more then a little ticked off at not only painting a piece for their catalog for free, but not even getting decent advertising out if it because they couldnt get my name let alone gender correct.

So the next year I waffle and finally decide to go because I have good friends going and tehres some cool GD only minis I could get. What a fiasco. There's absolutely nowhere to sit where you can even hear yourself think, let alone hang out and takl to friends. The judging was just as biasedly wacked (the year after that I had a friend literally told when she asked why her piece didnt make it that it would have but she had just painted the wrong miniature) and I pretty much hated the whole thing. The only good thing was being able to buy bits at teh show. I vowed never to go back and I will not unless massive sweeping changes happen. Somehow I just dont see it happening.

The reason American Games Days are not as artsy as the European ones is straight up that artsy stuff doesnt win unless it fits into their very specific veiw of what they want. Games Workshop in this country has some really screwy ideas of what constitutes good marketing, PR and customer service. Suffice to say I dont support them with my dollars, I dont frequent their stores and I have much better things to di with my time then enter thier competitions.

*end rant mode*

[cdukino]

The first year that the piece was in the catalog they not only mangled my last name Myereholts or something else rediculously off base, but they got my friggen *GENDER* wrong.

That sucks... you'd think they would care enough to check on both.

I checked your dark elf reapeater bolt thrower in my gw catalogue 2004-2005 edition page 522 (after thinking... damn that's her's too... I love that one) ... and yep: Noel Myer and you are refered to as he. :AR15firin (the rest of the text is nice though... I changed it with pen now in my catelogue... atleasts it's right somewhere then )

Most painting comps I have been to were very nice. Small, free miniature choice (not gw specific) and friendly small community. I have a bronze Crisis 2005 throphy (a what? ).. well they might not have the reputation of a golden deamon, but I sure had fun

Yeah remembering that miniature painters and collecters aren't by default male seems to be hard to do. I bought various miniatures from a guy on e-bay. Left all my e-mails and stuff with the signature Cindy (not a real masculine name)... and in the feedback he did still refer to me as... great e-bayer, would deal with this dude anyday. Can't everyone be as good as this guy." The comments were nice... but still not quite it with the genderchange... dude not being very feminine

I even had someone with my awfull handwriting thinking Cindy should have been Andy (well I had to be male right.. even if I submitted the miniature in person wearing a skirt...ah well) (merging the C and i later on... well Cindy was pretty clearly written in this case with my handwriting.

[wiccanpony]

A quick question...as I’m never going to be able to attend a GW Con or any other kind of Con, are there any..(what I would call “Open” Cons). Where it’s not a particular company sponsored one, like GW or Reaper???

yep! this gender bias in the gaming arena sucks, but the only way to correct it is to get out there girls and show them what we’re made of.

We gals need to start our own Painting Guild, W.W.P.M.S...Women Who Paint Minis Sublimely !!!

[Skya]

A quick question...as I’m never going to be able to attend a GW Con or any other kind of Con, are there any..(what I would call “Open” Cons). Where it’s not a particular company sponsored one, like GW or Reaper???

yep! this gender bias in the gaming arena sucks, but the only way to correct it is to get out there girls and show them what we’re made of.

We gals need to start our own Painting Guild, W.W.P.M.S...Women Who Paint Minis Sublimely !!!

I think a lot of what is still there in terms of bias (ignoring teh immature boys club that is GW) is due to the fact that most of the women I see involved in miniatures dont actually play, they only paint. This tends to limit thier exposure to the gaming community, which isnt neccessarily a bad thing given that many of those gamer steroetypes exist because, well they're true.

That benig said, there are actually a reasonably large number of active women in the mini painting community. When we "founded" IMMPS (Illinois Midwest Mini-Painters Society) which is our local we get together and paint on Fridays group it was half women. Over time we've added a few more guys then women, but our regular paint might is 50/50.

I help Sue run the paint and take as well as the miniatures competitions at GenCon and GenCon SoCal (which are by the way a non manufacturer restricted competition) and we see even more of them there. If there's one great thing about the paint and take is it definately attracts and intrests the bored mothers and gamer wives with something that they can relate to.

[green stuff]

My feelings are mostly along the lines of what Nathan and Anders said. It was interesting to speak about this with Sanjay (StarFire on CMON) because he's seen American, Canadian, and European minis first hand. The "art" theme mentioned by others here is what struck him the most. I think also that the judges are more open to new paint technics in Europe than on the other side of the pond ...

@wiccanpony : in September, there will be the "Mondial du Jeu" in Paris which will host an Open competion. It's sponsor is Ravage which is an independant magazine. We have other independant Opens but this will be the biggest one.

[Spacemunkie]

The evidence speaks for itself.

How many forums have you spammed with this post KUF???

[EricJ]

Here is what I find so funny, taken from my own experiences.

I paint up Ramos here, which incorperates some innovative and interesting and eyecatching elements. The next thing I know, a certain european forum freaks out for about a month, taking pretty much every step to discredit the work. Ok, so they're seeming completely unwilling to accept something good can come from "not one of their own"

THEN, there is all this talk about how painting in the US is so inferior to France.

Um, don't take this the wrong way, but perhaps when someone makes it so clear that they're completely unwilling to accept merit in painting coming form the US, it sort of discredits the 2nd point after taking so much time and effort to prove to everyone just how bias that opinion is.

I'm not saying LA was better than France the other weekend, I'm just saying that maybe it's not an issue that needs to be posted across every forum to stroke egos across the European continent?

I don't know, maybe the fact that this has become such a big topic is because the US is seen as threatening? What is the cause of this sudden need for public displays of European Ego stroking across the forums? That's sort of the more interesting question at this point.

[Spacemunkie]

It has nothing to do with ego stroking. From the pics that get posted of the entries in all the GD competitions globally, generally speaking it's a fact! What happened over at Creafigs was aimed directly at you Eric, not your country.

If I had to name the best GD entering painters at the moment, my list would include Allan C, Kiril Kanaev, J A Gillois, Monsieur Bonamant (much as it galls me...) and yes, probably Ms Melnik.

The evidence is pretty irrefutable. Multiple Demons from a range of competitions against the best there is.

Nobody's said that the painting in the US is inferior, just the level of competition at some of the GD's. Honestly, it's some of you Yanks who have made a big song and dance about it and are spitting all the fire and brimstone stuff. The best GD comp around at the moment judging from the pics I see is the French one. It leaves UKGD for dead too I reckon.

[King Ulrik Flamebeard]

The evidence speaks for itself.

How many forums have you spammed with this post KUF???

Spammed? Er, nay. No spamming by me :angel: I posted it on maybe six or seven forums, how can I be expected to see rhe thoughts of the multitude of gamers online from but one or two forums?

Nice to see people are being polite though, seems some cannot or just plainly will not. *shrugs*

KU

[Spacemunkie]

lol

It's EVERYWHERE!!!!

[EricJ]

um, if you are better, and then you point out to everyone you're better, that's what I call ego stroking. The fact France was better than LA isn't even a question! The question is what is the need of people to point it out over and over again when it's already so clear. My answer was ego stroking in this case, but I'm open to other answers.

But then it may just be our friend the King here trying to stir things up. But the threads over on cmon started before him.

Ultimately I'd like to work on increasing the level of work in the US GD's. I have to admit I wasn't very impressed overall with the competition in LA. It was far better than the photos, but still quite weak. On top of that, the judging was so utterly piss poor (of course I'm bias here). So basically, despite it all, I want to keep going to US GD's, and maybe try to work on the level of competition, and having so many voices talking about how piss poor worthless US comps are, is not helping things change for the better.

[King Ulrik Flamebeard]

Not quiet everywhere. I am sure I missed a few forums.. If you want it everywhere..

KU

[supervike]

Quite honestly I have lost most of my interest in the GD stuff, regardless of what country it is in.

The silly infighting, whining, bitching, and moaning makes almost all of it unpalatable. The incredible egos (on both sides of the Atlantic) is pretty disheartening.

Objectively, I think the European GDs tend to be of much higher quality. The imagination, the skill, the competition. There could be many reasons for that. One reason could be the French really rock at that art stuff. Another could be

that it isn't taken as seriously here yet. Mini-painting, for all its strides it has made, is still in its infancy in America. I don't know this for a fact, but it seems Europeans are a generation or two ahead of what is being done in America.

[Spacemunkie]

The silly infighting, whining, bitching, and moaning makes almost all of it unpalatable. The incredible egos (on both sides of the Atlantic) is pretty disheartening...

Well said. :thumb:

GD usually smells bad too

[EricJ]

Well said. :thumb:

GD usually smells bad too

Oddly enough, LA was quite well ventilated! I didn't catch much if any distastely body oder! Although it was quite smoggy, so that's the air that the place was ventilated with...but we were in LA after all...

[Spacemunkie]

The last one I went to was horrendous. The mini displays were down on the bottom level in a really enclosed space. By lunchtime the smell was absolutely aweful. It was stupidly busy as well. Horrible. Didn't go to the one at the NEC last year. Hope it's a better venue, I might venture down this year as it's near to my parents' house.