Errata 2022 - Outcast

[admiralvorkraft]

Or the opposite of Face in the Crowd - they gain Concealment so long as they aren't withing 6" of another model? Something along those lines. 

[50 SS Enforcer]

I think in every outcasts game I’ve played I think I’ve taken upgrades 0 times. In every neverborn or resser game I’ve yet to play a game without an upgrade. 
 

to me soldier for hire would be one of the best upgrades in the game:

flurry

rapid fire

minion ability:

bounty hunter

[Maniacal_cackle]

41 minutes ago, 50 SS Enforcer said:

I think in every outcasts game I’ve played I think I’ve taken upgrades 0 times. In every neverborn or resser game I’ve yet to play a game without an upgrade. 
 

to me soldier for hire would be one of the best upgrades in the game:

flurry

rapid fire

minion ability:

bounty hunter

Putting that much power onto an upgrade means you'd have to rebalance the whole faction to account for having two copies of the upgrade in most crews.

[50 SS Enforcer]

I mean, I would have originally designed the upgrade that way with the faction in mind. Too strong to currently do that. 

[Azahul]

I've said it before in this thread, but I want Bounty Hunter moved off of Minion only so badly. It's so cool thematically and I never get any use out of it since Outcast Minions aren't really great choices for combat models to begin with, let alone dropping two stones for several marginal benefits.

[LexLock]

Servant of Dark Powers is pretty good and versatile, but the others... Soldier for Hire is basically HtK for 2ss and Wanted Criminal went from bad to near untakeable with their last "fix", maybe worth it for the movement on Tara1 and I'm tempted on a Ronin but you really want them to be disposable and 8ss is a bit much.

 

I feel like we, as a faction, need some defence against our little things being blasted off the board. Middle of the Storm or Stealth or Bulletproof +2 would be a great minion benefit that could help out some of our squishies.

Maybe they could release some new general upgrades that are focused on buffing crappy minions, the best way to buff bad minions without buffing things like Necropunks, Arachnid Swarms or Bokors would be to give them a strong demise, so that their fragility becomes a strength (Or limit it to 4ss only, are there any busted 4 costs?).

Hmm... I think there needs to be reason to hire low cost models, they should add a 2ss refund demise as a general upgrade rule in the next GG, so that you're simultaneously rewarded for bringing more minions and there's less of an opportunity cost if it's a fragile 4 cost and dies first or second turn.

My genius is unmatched, you're welcome universe.

[Azahul]

27 minutes ago, LexLock said:

Servant of Dark Powers is pretty good and versatile, but the others... Soldier for Hire is basically HtK for 2ss and Wanted Criminal went from bad to near untakeable with their last "fix", maybe worth it for the movement on Tara1 and I'm tempted on a Ronin but you really want them to be disposable and 8ss is a bit much.

 

I feel like we, as a faction, need some defence against our little things being blasted off the board. Middle of the Storm or Stealth or Bulletproof +2 would be a great minion benefit that could help out some of our squishies.

Maybe they could release some new general upgrades that are focused on buffing crappy minions, the best way to buff bad minions without buffing things like Necropunks, Arachnid Swarms or Bokors would be to give them a strong demise, so that their fragility becomes a strength (Or limit it to 4ss only, are there any busted 4 costs?).

Hmm... I think there needs to be reason to hire low cost models, they should add a 2ss refund demise as a general upgrade rule in the next GG, so that you're simultaneously rewarded for bringing more minions and there's less of an opportunity cost if it's a fragile 4 cost and dies first or second turn.

My genius is unmatched, you're welcome universe.

Even Servant just doesn't look great when sat next to Grave Spirit's Touch, which it mimics in two of the three things it does. Still, it's close enough to usable that I at least need both hands (barely) to count the number of models I would like to Servant on.

 

I actually think our low cost models are in a reasonably good spot though. Winged Plagues, Desperate Mercenaries, and Bandidos need help, but Catalan Riflemen, Void Wretches, and Freikorpsmann are all worth consideration in lists. I don't think sweeping changes are needed, just a couple of targeted buffs to some low performing models and a total overhaul of Soldier for Hire and Wanted Criminal (again).

[RisingPhoenix]

On 1/22/2022 at 7:53 PM, Brilliance Laced Whiskey said:

I think giving Bandidos stealth, or stealth under certain conditions is a great idea without going with the go to HtW or HtK.  They'd remain squishy, but only when the enemies are within a certain range.  

 

If blanket stealth is too good, maybe reduce the range of the pistol by 2 inches.

Meh, stop being scared when we're buffing trash models.  They're trash.  A good buff like Stealth isn't going to make them "too good".  It's more you should wonder if it's far enough.  Does that really make them worth half of Mad Dog?  Agree they definitely need plus flips like the rest of the crew (they're two guns, it makes sense). 

Like people think I'm joking when I say give Desperate Mercenaries +1 health, HTW, and 2/3/5, but would two of them beat Sue, a mediocre 8 stone model?  No?  Yeah, we can put in quite a lot of buff.

[RisingPhoenix]

15 hours ago, Azahul said:

I actually think our low cost models are in a reasonably good spot though. Winged Plagues, Desperate Mercenaries, and Bandidos need help, but Catalan Riflemen, Void Wretches, and Freikorpsmann are all worth consideration in lists. I don't think sweeping changes are needed, just a couple of targeted buffs to some low performing models and a total overhaul of Soldier for Hire and Wanted Criminal (again).

Void Wretches summon, but other than that are not worth consideration.  Frankly with the summoning nerfs, they're basically just a tar pit to throw at someone to make them stop for a turn and beat the Wretch to death.  Their role could be taken by a large block of tofu, and you'd never ever hire one. 

Friekorpsmann are sometimes taken to carry a rocket launcher, and that's pretty much it. 

Catalan Riflemen are new models and oh boy does that show.  What a massive difference in design.  The funny part is they're still kinda meh, not autoincludes by any stretch.  Which as versatile is a good thing, but versatile shouldn't be the strongest.

Sweeping changes are needed - we're not the only faction impacted, not by far.  We have to consider the other six factions that are not new and oh boy their cheap models are equally trash - molemen make Winged Plagues look GOOD for instance. 

[LexLock]

It's true, and you should say it. Someone needs to stand up for the little guy! So many fluffy minions are untakeable if you're playing with a competitive mindset.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, LexLock said:

It's true, and you should say it. Someone needs to stand up for the little guy! So many fluffy minions are untakeable if you're playing with a competitive mindset.

Is that just cuz there's so many, though (and also that you don't want very many cheap models)?  There's at least as many playable cheap models.

In Outcasts for instance, you at least have:

Malifaux rats, malifaux child, student of conflict, void wretch, big jake, Freikorpsmann, Guilty, Obedient wretch, Freikorps engineer, Metallurgist, Rat Catcher, Ronin, Scion of the void.

That's over a dozen playable cheap models already!

[Azahul]

3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Void Wretches summon, but other than that are not worth consideration.  Frankly with the summoning nerfs, they're basically just a tar pit to throw at someone to make them stop for a turn and beat the Wretch to death.  Their role could be taken by a large block of tofu, and you'd never ever hire one. 

Void Wretches are cheap AP that avoid the biggest downside of cheap models (giving up activation control by being one-shot before they activate) by not being on the table before they activate. And thanks to the way the Keyword works they can get those cheap AP virtually anywhere on the table. Yeah, the summoning nerfs mean that as summons they're primarily meat shields, but they're fine for that and sometimes they cost your opponent good cards by landing incidental Glimpse the Void checks. But you would absolutely hire them. Namely, for Hidden Martyrs or Catch and Release. With Tara's activation control and pass token generation you can virtually guarantee two points out of Catch any time it comes up. Unbury next to a soulstone user end of turn for a reveal point, win initiative next turn and bury the Wretch again until Turn 5, activate the Wretch last Turn 5. 4 stones for two points is a steal. Hired Wretches are also efficient for pushing Break the Line Strategy markers across the table, especially if the markers are spread out further than your opponent can handle so they can't really respond to what the Wretch is doing.

 

As for Freikorpsmann being sometimes taken for a specific role... I agree. I also think that's exactly where most models should be pitched. They have a decent, sometimes use that means they see table time but aren't in every list. They're great.

[RisingPhoenix]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Is that just cuz there's so many, though (and also that you don't want very many cheap models)?  There's at least as many playable cheap models.

In Outcasts for instance, you at least have:

Malifaux rats, malifaux child, student of conflict, void wretch, big jake, Freikorpsmann, Guilty, Obedient wretch, Freikorps engineer, Metallurgist, Rat Catcher, Ronin, Scion of the void.

That's over a dozen playable cheap models already!

It's kinda telling we have to expand our list of cheap models to 6 stones to pad the list.  And add a whole bunch of non-minions to boot.  It's a bit disingenuous. 

Frankly if you don't think there's something systemically wrong with the cheap minions in Malifaux you're not paying attention.  As I said we're far from the only faction from this issue, and we're far from the worst.  They are largely balanced like you're rewarded for taking them like M2E, while in fact you are punished for taking them and lose activation control.  It appears to be a systemic design issue which wasn't caught in the abbreviated playtesting. 

[Azahul]

Is there any reason a low cost Enforcer wouldn't suffer the same structural issues that low cost Minions do? Mechanically speaking the points of differentiation are just that Minions can be brought in multiples and get more out of upgrades.

 

I do think to an extent the plight of low cost Minions is overblown. There are a good smattering of low cost combat Minions and a handful of poorly designed schemers (the role I assume Winged Plagues, Molemen, Hoarcats, etc. are envisaged to fill) that are absolutely bad, but they don't outweigh the number of rarely played high cost models by any material margin. At least not in Outcasts. If we define "low cost" as 5 or less, since 6 is too high, we're really only left with Bandidos, Winged Plagues, and Desperate Mercenaries as the models that never see play (Abominations aren't great either but summonable models usually get a pass since they'll see play regardless). That's three choices.

 

Now, I'm unsure where you would prefer to define high cost. Personally I think of it as 8+, since Cost 8 is where you typically see a material shift in what models can do (effective 3 AP becomes more common, min 3s are nearly exclusively at that level, etc.), but maybe you'd prefer 9+? In either case we've got Lazarus and Desolation Engines as pretty widely acknowledged to be below the curve, and Convict Gunslingers creep in at 8. Plus more words seem to be spent on how to buff the likes of Taelor, Bishop, Drachen Troopers, etc. than are typically thrown at buffing the more marginal low cost models like the Freikorpsmann since it's usually easier for low cost models to occupy a "sometimes" space since they're less of an investment.

 

Now, some factions absolutely have it worse with their cheap models than Outcasts do, but this drumbeat that there is a systemic issue with low cost models specifically seems to forget just how many high cost models are also seen as subpar. 

 

@Maniacal_cackle identified in another discussion that there is a broader issue with bringing large numbers of low cost models (outside of specific examples like Nexus and Hamelin), since the good cheap models rarely work well as the actual meat of a list. Personally I think that issue can largely be laid at the feet of cheap combat minions specifically being the actual problem, you rarely want to build a list of just cheap schemers and support models so you end up bringing more elite models to serve the combat function.

 

But anyway, long story short, there is an issue with cheap Minions in Malifaux, but the issue is smaller and more targeted than the "cheap Minions are bad" catch-cry would have you believe.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah, it doesn't matter how good the cheap models are most of the time. The way the pass tokens work mean that you don't want to flood the board with models for most crews, even if they're as good as Enslaved Spirits.

Often people complain about cheap models in a way that makes me think they think the *cards* of those models are the problem (since they call for buffs of the models), while ignoring the issue with the wider rules (even if you have access to excellent cheap models, you're still probably not going to hire more than 1-2).

[Azahul]

I'm not sure I agree that it's pass tokens specifically that are causing the issue. When you look across factions it's usually the cheap models whose main utility is ostensibly fighting where you see the complaints (though there are a few that seem like they are meant to be schemers, but who are limited to 2 AP and don't really have anything to make them good at getting into position, that's a category a fair few fall into). I think if a cadre of three Bandidos were actually a serious fighting threat to a Master though in the way, say, Fuhatsu with Tanuki support could be, you would start to see a larger number of Minion-heavy builds.

 

But if you can't build a core of a list around cheap fighters then you'll bring the more reliable elite models and end up with only a few cheap models scheming/support.

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, Azahul said:

I'm not sure I agree that it's pass tokens specifically that are causing the issue. When you look across factions it's usually the cheap models whose main utility is ostensibly fighting where you see the complaints (though there are a few that seem like they are meant to be schemers, but who are limited to 2 AP and don't really have anything to make them good at getting into position, that's a category a fair few fall into). I think if a cadre of three Bandidos were actually a serious fighting threat to a Master though in the way, say, Fuhatsu with Tanuki support could be, you would start to see a larger number of Minion-heavy builds.

 

But if you can't build a core of a list around cheap fighters then you'll bring the more reliable elite models and end up with only a few cheap models scheming/support.

I think pass tokens and activation control capture the vast bulk of the problem.

If you put 15 stones of minions against a master, there's quite a good chance they could kill the master if they got to activate.

Another aspect of the problem is concentration of resources of course (you only start with 6 cards to support your crew - you want to funnel those cards into the most powerful AP possible).

But this could be an entire thread in and of itself - the challenge of having crews with lots of weak minions (which is very different from claiming individual cards might need a buff).

[Azahul]

Well, I do think it's good to knuckle down the root cause of the problem. I think you value the strength of initiative/activation control more than I do (too much Hamelin in my brain leaving my attitude very much "Eh, what happens happens, forth my Minions!"... even though Hamelin could have very good activation control if I built for it).

 

That said, I would agree that right now I would settle for a buff that sees a single combat Minion get taken into lists, rather than lists composing of nothing but combat Minions. So let's focus on making Bandidos good enough to bring in the singular and worry about Bandido firing squads down the line.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think as you mentioned above, one excellent sweet spot is when there's special tech.

Freikorpsmann have ruthless. Ronin have armor-ignore. Tech like that can make a big difference.

[Zebo]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you put 15 stones of minions against a master, there's quite a good chance they could kill the master if they got to activate.

I was slightly disagreeing with this, until the image of 7 rats swarming a Master and doing 14 attacks with stat 9 and 3/4/4 damage came to my mind xD. 

 

I don't think big changes should be done to bad models, becausr it would rocket the problem to the other side IMHO. In the Beta, Desperate Mercs used to have a Clockwork Rifle and they where way over the top. 

 

Desperate Mercenaries would probably be fine just with a 2/3/4 gun. 

Winged Plague with Fly with Me was my go-to from the beginning. They would still be squishy, but more useful than now. 

Not sure about Bandidos getting Stealth would be good. HtK is the easy solution, although maybe some change to their trigger to add damage reduction could also do the job. Agree with the  to attack. In fact, they should lose the knife and gain Gunfighter. 

Freikorpsmann are an all-around model, so they seem fine as they are, although I would love to see on them the same than the Catalan Riflemem (For the Corps!). 

Regarding the Void Wretches, they also seem a bit weak for me. Being a summonable model doesn't turn them okay. Although I think the same about the Void Hunters. They look to me a bit short on everything they do to cost what they cost. 

The problem with abominations is not their profile. 5 wounds HtW minion that heals himself and interrupt enemy healing is nice enough, but they simply don't add many usefulness to their crew. 

 

[RisingPhoenix]

22 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think pass tokens and activation control capture the vast bulk of the problem.

If you put 15 stones of minions against a master, there's quite a good chance they could kill the master if they got to activate.

Okay, lets say our Master is Von Schill.  Is:

3 Bandidos going to kill Von Schill?  Evaluation: They have a 40% chance to hit him, and a 66% chance to do 1 damage if they do.  Total likely damage, 4-5 if every one gets off two shots.

4 Desperate Mercenaries going to kill Von Schill?  Slightly better, still, total likely damage is ~5. 

4 Winged Plagues going to kill Von Schill?  Noooooo

3 Friekorpsmenn going to kill Von Schill?  Noooooo (see above)

Yeah, okay.  Not a chance in hell.  You can let all of them activate twice, then Von Schill can still punt them off the table.  Same deal with attack Twin Viks.  Even a master like Parker Barrows is only going to take 5-6 damage then clean a model off the table every time he activates (easily - and he'll be gaining soulstones as he does it).  This is the less combat-focused Von Schill who isn't giving himself Shielded +2 with 3/4/6 claw attacks by the by...

This is just getting outright silly.  Who thinks 3 Bandidos can kill Von Schill?  Why was this proposed as an argument?  Have the people making the argument played Malifaux before?  They just cannot output the damage necessary to do so.  And you're far better off paying 16 for Parker or Von Schill to let him duel another master than you would be paying 15 for 3 Bandidos

[Rufess]

It's very true that killing a master with equal ss of minions is highly impossible. But even a master can hardly kill another master within an activation, isn't it?

Assuming Von Schill is attacking another Von Schill. The accuracy is about 53.85% with stat 6 vs Df 6. Von Schill is doing 2.33 on his melee with Critical Strike, and 2.46 with his rifle per hit. So he is about doing 3.76 ~ 3.97 damage on the target Von Schill in an activation. Comparing to you math, I think the minions are doing a relative good job, and can be even better when they are against a lower Df and non-armored target.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Rufess

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think if you take three Rotten Belles for instance and throw them into combat with an average master (or potentially even a combat god like von schill), there's a good chance they'll get to kill them if they all get an effective activation the first time. That 6-9ap to 3-4ap will add up.

But Rotten Belles aren't seen in many lists, much less three of them, because of the wider issues with cheap minions (aka, the problem isn't on the Rotten Belle card so much as the wider ruleset).

So just trying to buff the models until they're playable isn't going to give you a lot of lists with tons of cheap models. Even pre-nerf necropunks which were game-breakingly awesome, you wouldn't see that many lists with 3 of them (and often only one).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Of course there's no reason to not buff those models (other than Wyrd is a bit slow/conservative with buffing a bunch of models at once).

But just worth noting that there's not really a power level for the models that:

• Is acceptably low for a low-cost model (not stitched or necropunk level power before their nerfs)
• Is high enough that you'll see lists with lots of cheap minions commonly in competitive play.

There's some exceptions of course (it'd be weird to see a Hamelin or Cadmus list wtihout minions), but I think for a 'standard' crew the above points will apply.

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think if you take three Rotten Belles for instance and throw them into combat with an average master (or potentially even a combat god like von schill), there's a good chance they'll get to kill them if they all get an effective activation the first time. That 6-9ap to 3-4ap will add up.

But Rotten Belles aren't seen in many lists, much less three of them, because of the wider issues with cheap minions (aka, the problem isn't on the Rotten Belle card so much as the wider ruleset).

So just trying to buff the models until they're playable isn't going to give you a lot of lists with tons of cheap models. Even pre-nerf necropunks which were game-breakingly awesome, you wouldn't see that many lists with 3 of them (and often only one).

First of all, I a) don't disagree with you that the balancing point is hard to hit, and b) don't even think we should be trying to push all Minions to the point where you want to field the maximum allowance any time we can. I would be very happy if there was a case to be made to be a single Bandido or Desperate Mercenary into a crew if the pool or opponent suited them.

 

But I don't agree so much that the core rulebook is shutting them down conceptually so much. I look at the likes of Daydreams with Dreamer, or Colette and Ophelia bringing three totems, or just the existence of summoners as a force to be reckoned with more generally (even after the hits they've taken in this Gaining Grounds), and I just don't see Pass Tokens being this insurmountable block to competitive performance that you find it to be. People don't normally cite the fact that Lord Cooper crews nearly invariably hit double digit models as a reason why he doesn't perform competitively. It's not an irrelevant concern, and if balancing models at a low price point were easy we wouldn't be having this discussion, but I think you may be over emphasising it just a tad.