Thought I'd bring this over here as I'm reading a lot of differing opinions on discord and the forums about this interaction. There are those that feel the FAQ applies and Vengeance does not happen, and others that say that Vengeance is not covered by the FAQ and will happen.
Here is the FAQ:
12. * If a model has multiple Abilities that resolve after it is targeted (such as Terrifying (X), Protected (X), or another model’s Take the Hit Ability) can it resolve more than one?*
a) Yes. When a model is targeted all effects that would resolve are generated at the same time and can be resolved in any order (as per Simultaneous Effects on Pg 34). However, some effects may change the target of the Action, in which case that new model is not targeted and as such those effects aren’t generated a second time. Additionally, abilities such as Manipulative that affect Actions that target “this model” only apply to those Actions that are still targeting that model. For example, if a model with Take the Hit changes the target of an Action to itself, it would not benefit from any of the initial target’s Abilities such as Manipulative that require the Action to target “this model”, nor could it benefit from more of its own abilities that resolve when it is targeted (such as Terrifying).
I think I fall on the side of the FAQ taking precedence as it pretty clearly states the new model is "not targeted" and Vengeance says 'Action that targeted'. I'm not sure about manipulative as it uses the word 'target', but it uses it as a verb so seems to mean the initial Targeting step.
I think what we need is a capital Target to cover the initial step of targeting a model and how that applies throughout the Action vs the lowercase 'target', which just tells us who is going to suffer effects of the Action.
It sure seems like this one is going to be a 'discuss ahead of time and agree' until Wyrd gives a FAQ for their FAQ.
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Paddywhack
Thought I'd bring this over here as I'm reading a lot of differing opinions on discord and the forums about this interaction. There are those that feel the FAQ applies and Vengeance does not happen, and others that say that Vengeance is not covered by the FAQ and will happen.
Here is the FAQ:
12. * If a model has multiple Abilities that resolve after it is targeted (such as Terrifying (X), Protected (X), or another model’s Take the Hit Ability) can it resolve more than one?*
a) Yes. When a model is targeted all effects that would resolve are generated at the same time and can be resolved in any order (as per Simultaneous Effects on Pg 34). However, some effects may change the target of the Action, in which case that new model is not targeted and as such those effects aren’t generated a second time. Additionally, abilities such as Manipulative that affect Actions that target “this model” only apply to those Actions that are still targeting that model. For example, if a model with Take the Hit changes the target of an Action to itself, it would not benefit from any of the initial target’s Abilities such as Manipulative that require the Action to target “this model”, nor could it benefit from more of its own abilities that resolve when it is targeted (such as Terrifying).
It seems that the World Series Vassal has ruled that Manipulative of the new TTH model would happen and by extension, so would Vengeance. It's long, so I won't copy it all here, but here is the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MAzIgYPIJAIJvitegXtiUxSYpe-odMu7DkWiNMLBE1U/edit#heading=h.9m8bihl7g5kn
I think I fall on the side of the FAQ taking precedence as it pretty clearly states the new model is "not targeted" and Vengeance says 'Action that targeted'. I'm not sure about manipulative as it uses the word 'target', but it uses it as a verb so seems to mean the initial Targeting step.
I think what we need is a capital Target to cover the initial step of targeting a model and how that applies throughout the Action vs the lowercase 'target', which just tells us who is going to suffer effects of the Action.
It sure seems like this one is going to be a 'discuss ahead of time and agree' until Wyrd gives a FAQ for their FAQ.
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