Last card in deck and Open info

[Rufess]

I never had doubt that the last card in a deck is an open info to that player. Means the player can always loot at that card and plan for next action.

In my last game however, my opponent was confusing after seeing me looking at my last card before flipping. After discussion he did agree with me though. This however makes me realize that not every player shares same thinking on this topic.

So how do you think on this? Would you accept if your opponent looking at the last card in his deck?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I'm curious, do you also let your opponent look at your hand once you get to that point?  Or to at least tell him what cards aren't in your discard pile?

Officially under the rules you can't look at the last card, and you can't spend too long looking at your discard pile... So unless you can process information very quickly or have a sorting method for your discard pile (without changing the order), I don't think most people could actually figure out the last card in a reasonable timeframe.

[Rufess]

Yes, I would tell the opponent something like "there are 4 of ram, 9 of crow and 11 of mask in my hand and my deck". Or if I had no card in hand, I would just reveal my last card to opponent before he took any action.

In my theory, the game rewards decision making, but not card counting. So as long as all open info is sharing in a fair way, finding a faster way to gather info should be no harm to either side.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Rufess said:

Yes, I would tell the opponent something like "there are 4 of ram, 9 of crow and 11 of mask in my hand and my deck". Or if I had no card in hand, I would just reveal my last card to opponent before he took any action.

In my theory, the game rewards decision making, but not card counting. So as long as all open info is sharing in a fair way, finding a faster way to gather info should be no harm to either side.

I agree that approach makes sense, especially if both players are happy with it.

Im not sure that it is strictly allowed, but seems a reasonable way tool approach it.

[SEV]

Malifaux is a game with a strange rules set. In tournament you can't do that. As Maniaclke said, you have to figure it out by yourself and quickly!  Moreover your opponent is not allowed to look at your discard piles.

So if you're in a competitive setting (and you don't have a perfect memory), I thing your best shot is to count severe and jokers for you and your opponent. This is manageable (12 severes and 2 jokers) for me; so I can tell if my opponent have severe left or not... Beside that it's just to much.

In casual game I'm happy to let my opponent check is last cards and my discard. I would also keep the reveal  cards open information.

[Maniacal_cackle]

26 minutes ago, SEV said:

Malifaux is a game with a strange rules set. In tournament you can't do that. As Maniaclke said, you have to figure it out by yourself and quickly!  Moreover your opponent is not allowed to look at your discard piles.

So if you're in a competitive setting (and you don't have a perfect memory), I thing your best shot is to count severe and jokers for you and your opponent. This is manageable (12 severes and 2 jokers) for me; so I can tell if my opponent have severe left or not... Beside that it's just to much.

In casual game I'm happy to let my opponent check is last cards and my discard. I would also keep the reveal  cards open information.

You can't look at enemy discard piles, but the information is open I believe.

(Everything in the rules is open unless it explicitly says otherwise).

[RayMet]

Some masters like Maxine have ability to shuffle back enemy cards to deck from discard piles. And if you didn't know cards that was discarded it's very hard to plan something. 
Also Karina can swap deck with discard pile. You need somewhere write all cards that was discarded or you just can watch in your deck that was swapped in any time (if opponent agreed).

[solkan]

Let's establish an important point.  Something being private information doesn't mean that no one can figure it out, it means that you're not allowed to check to see if you're right.  😈

The rulebook says two things:

Quote

Players may look through their own Discard Piles but may not slow the game by doing so.

By implication, the other player doesn't get to do this.

And

Quote

Players are not allowed to look through either Fate Deck.

Gaining Grounds goes a bit further than that with:

Quote

Deck Etiquette

Players may not touch a Fate Deck unless the rules specifically call for them to do so (such as when drawing or shuffling) or if the deck needs to be moved because it is in the way. Picking up or fiddling with a deck when it is unnecessary is not allowed.

There are various effects which let you look at some of the cards in either or both decks.  Once the effect is resolved, you're back to the normal rules--you've gained knowledge that you can't double check if you forget or lose track of it.

--

Are you capable of counting cards, keeping track of everyone's decks in your head, or whatever else you want to claim?  That's awesome.  Why aren't you off somewhere trying to make money counting cards in a casino, though?  😇

 

[trikk]

30 minutes ago, solkan said:

Are you capable of counting cards, keeping track of everyone's decks in your head, or whatever else you want to claim?  That's awesome.  Why aren't you off somewhere trying to make money counting cards in a casino, though?  😇

 

Cause its illegal I believe

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, trikk said:

Cause its illegal I believe

I don't think it is illegal. Casinos just monitor for anyone that wins too much and kicks them out, IIRC.

Partially because it is really hard to legislate (How do you legislate for someone counting cards in their head?)

[trikk]

44 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't think it is illegal. Casinos just monitor for anyone that wins too much and kicks them out, IIRC.

Partially because it is really hard to legislate (How do you legislate for someone counting cards in their head?)

Yes. I used the wrong words. It doesn't get you in jail. It gets you roughed up in the casino back exit

[Maladroit]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

You can't look at enemy discard piles, but the information is open I believe.

(Everything in the rules is open unless it explicitly says otherwise).

Was just reading the rules to follow up this point

So yes - cards in the conflict are public knowledge and all discarded cards must be revealed (can't discard two and your opponent only gets to see the top one.)

Then noticed this:

Cards removed from the game: "When doing so, the Fate Card is set aside face up". It does not mention going into a pile of some sort - so does that mean that all removed cards must be face up in a row or similar so that you can see all of them??? Asking for a friend who plays dreamer against me . . . .

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Maladroit said:

Was just reading the rules to follow up this point

So yes - cards in the conflict are public knowledge and all discarded cards must be revealed (can't discard two and your opponent only gets to see the top one.)

Then noticed this:

Cards removed from the game: "When doing so, the Fate Card is set aside face up". It does not mention going into a pile of some sort - so does that mean that all removed cards must be face up in a row or similar so that you can see all of them??? Asking for a friend who plays dreamer against me . . . .

The cards can be arranged however you like, but according to the Gaining Grounds, all information is public unless explicitly stated otherwise.

So if you want to know what is in your opponent's removed from game pile, you can just ask.

[Adran]

I played 1 game where my opponent reached his last card and went for an attack confident that the card was the red joker. It wasn't. That was when we discovered he had dropped the red joker into his figure case...

Anyway, enough of the funny story. I would look strangely at someone that looked at the last card of their deck. I understand your concept that you could have tracked the information, but I think I'd rather you actually tracked the information than just got the end advantage of doing so. (I know that it would be much more time consuming to do so, but I also expect you'd make mistakes, or confuse yourself each turn as to what is remaining. The mental space to keep track of that isn't free). I may be in the minority on that, but I would be happier for you to slow the game down to track the information rather than just look at the card at the end and pretend you had done that hard work.