Calling on the wisdom of the Neverborn Masters - playing JackDaw!

[WhereIsRich]

Hi Folks

New NB player - jumped onto M3E this year and getting to grips with Mama Z and Tatty.

I am probably playing Jackdaw next week and was keen to tap into the NB wisdom web to get some tips on how you approach this one! i have heard Jack is a wonderful play experience, and I sure I could figure it all out at the table (  ) but thought it would be worth seeing how the more experienced folks tackle this one.

He is in Ressers. Setup is:  Symbols, Corner. Scheme Pool: Detonate, Outflank, Death Beds, Breakthrough, Catch and Release. I have declared Zorida.

How have you folks approached this one?

Ben (my opponent!)  if you are reading this let me know and we can play the I know that you know that I know that you know game...

Thanks for anyhelp folks! Will report back with a write up and pics after the game (next Saturday - lockdown getting lifted fingers crossed!!!!)

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oof, corner symbols for Jack Saw seems rough.

Stealth is super good against Jack Daw as is butterfly jump. So I would definitely stock up on those. Then spread out and he should struggle to kill everything.

For him, I would expect Outflank as he can score that better than you I imagine. Catch and release is probably doable for one point, but tricky?

I don't know Jack Daw that well, but my last game I slaughtered him by avoiding the fight and forcing him to cross the board. That may be harder here - you may lose each model that claims a symbol, so have a plan for that.

[SEV]

Try to avoid his bubble. Activate Z late if you can to mitigate the discard. 

You should be able to outmaneuver him easily. The pool is great for you. All the sche.e exept death bed are favorable for your crew. 

I would bring for sure 2 silurid and The First Mate and maybe a summoner (either WW or Spawnmother) and a Bokor for the card draw. Try to slow him down with Z as much as you can while all your pieces are Scheming. 

[nomoredroids]

I love playing Daw so here's my advice from the Jack Daw side, assuming you're playing Z: 

Z herself will do well against Jack Daw's Terrifying. You can hit him with Poisoned Fate to make him rethink cheating during his turns (he won't cheat to Defend), and then Hex him a couple of times, stoning to get the Coordinated Strike. You can just Obey a Ruthless model, too. I think Hooded Rider or Carver OOK are your only real options. Don't use Threads of Fate unless you want Daw to heal back to full. So go for it if you haven't attacked Daw, yet.  You can't ignore Daw; he'll make your life very hard. 

Try Inhuman Reflexes on a couple of minions. They can Blade Rush through him for ping damage without needing to worry about his Terrifying, then can still try to hit him. Conditions are terrible on Jack Daw. 

Anything that makes him discard on top of doing 2+ damage is going to upset him. Such as "Penetrating Stench." Or McTavish's Execute and Maim triggers. 

Tormented is real bad at movement unless the opponent is hanging back. So Symbols is going to be rough for him if you can get your models up the board quickly (good thing you've got Zoraida). 

The other thing you need to watch for are the Hanged. They're some of the best tarpits in the game, but they get a little easier to deal with if Jack Daw is gone. Ruthless helps, again, but attacking them over-and-over is going to get old. Especially if they take the Grave Spirit's Touch for Regen +2 and Terrifying +1. So if you've got a bunch of Staggered, go after them, but otherwise, IMO, it's not worth it. Unless you have an easy answer to 8 Wounds, Regen 2, Incorp, and Terrifying 13. Zoraida could help you here. Focus them down. Use McTavish to execute or maim them. 

Finally, watch for Ligeia (Jack Daw's totem). If you're within 6", she forces you to Discard if you want to Cheat Fate. This is extremely taxing in a high-Terrifying crew. She's got that ability, Incorp, and 4 Wounds. She should be killed immediately. The sooner the better. If you want to know how I win most games with Jack Daw, it's Ligeia. A turn where I've made you discard 2-3 cards to cheat Terrifying flips to do a couple points to Jack Daw (which he then heals immediately) means you're probably not going to win that game. 

The last thing is to not give up. Target key models, focus them down, and ignore the rest. Jack Daw will go down with an appropriate amount of pressure. The earlier you force him to act, the less capable of withstanding your pressure he is.  And the sooner Jack Daw and Ligeia are out of the picture, the easier your game becomes. 

[Roadhouse]

Lyssa can clear your Staggered from 8" or 12" as long as they're out of 6" of Montressor. Dont relent and choose the lower card from the plus if you dont want to reposition/ for Startle.

Rider is Mv 7 and alot of Tormented attacks target Mv so thats really nice. Also having him charge outside of his activation so he gets [+] to damage during his own does work on Def 4 models.

 

WW making Stitched from Voodoo scrap is excellent, doesn't matter the matchup

[WhereIsRich]

Amazing to hear everything and thanks all for the input!! Appreciate the time you all put in to writing points up.

How much resource would you put towards using totem and landing mamas curse on jack daw, then using will o wisp to stun, slow, distract him? Also putting single points on him could be nice (with the dolls own trigger) and I could always heal the doll then hit him with other models

Staggered seems to be key - makes me think about taking Serena for healing and condition removal. Some discard pressure and placement tricks in there as well to control the tide with her gun while Keeping her safe(r).

In terms of summoners: how relevant do you think the stitched would be? Concerned they will struggle to punch through the terrifying with wp 5/4 and even with armour they may get eaten by his beaters. Poison and adding chip damage feels good though. For WW I usually (in 2/2 games so far!) take an extra 2 stones for the masks and keep a few 9s in my hand - this feels like it may be a bit trickier with Jack as I’ll want to keep more cards in my hand to protect vs execute. 

And as points win prizes, with spawn mother having gupps running about scheming feels more optimal then stitched trying to take on the tormented.

The Rider is always boss and some great swings would be ace - how is the rider vs monty or daw matchup likely to go? 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

If you can land stun on jack daw before his On Your Heels, that will be pretty devastating. He likes his triggers and bonus actions, so it is generically good against him I imagine if he doesn't have condition removal.

Rider with ruthless is probably a great idea. However, attacking Jack may not go well - ping damage is way better against him. The voodoo doll damage can be devastating if you do 5 separate pings to Jack.

[WhereIsRich]

Mama Z And The Slinkies (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Zoraida
Hires:
  Gautraeux Bokor
  Silurid
  The First Mate
  Serena Bowman
  Hooded Rider
  Will o' the Wisp
References:
  Voodoo Doll
  Wanga Mojo Curse
 

so first crack at a list - Serena could be swapped out for another silurid or swamp mother. Comes back to how important is that condition removal.

Or if the curse isn’t that relevant - could swap out the WoW and play off of 2 or 4 stones with either a second silurid or swamp mother.

 

 

[nomoredroids]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Rider with ruthless is probably a great idea. However, attacking Jack may not go well - ping damage is way better against him. The voodoo doll damage can be devastating if you do 5 separate pings to Jack.

Ping damage is not as good as being able to hit for 2+. If you can get incidental damage, great. But 2 damage forces a discard. Getting the Rider in close to Jack so that Lady Z can give him multiple attacks would be my choice. Making it clear that Jack needs to hold his hand or die is going to deeply limit his options. Stunning Jack so he can't get away is even better. And should the Rider survive, it's going to be able to put serious pressure on the Hanged and Monty. Rider's bonus isn't going to be very effective against Jack Daw, so that frees up Ride With Me and his tokens can be assigned to defensive duty, which is great. 

I'm not super familiar with Zoraida, but if getting 5 damage on Jack in one activation is doable, that's probably how I'd go, too. That would be terrible for Jack. If it isn't easy to stack up, Jack will just heal 1 per turn. Edit: oh, and Jack can stone those pokes. He doesn't have a ton of uses for stones other than keeping Hanged around and adding suits, but if he knows he's going up against a bunch of incidental damage that probably would be a good way to keep the Master around. 

[SEV]

I think it's a fine list... But as I said with the scenario you have you're heavily favored... It's corner + Symbols with a non killy scheme pool...  I don't even see the point of trying to Brawl with Jack. 

If you do want to brawl. Juju is an other fine option. He's WP 7 after all. 

For that scenario this is the list I would play :

New Zoraida Crew (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Zoraida
Hires:
  The First Mate
  Spawn Mother
  Silurid
  Silurid 2
  Gautraeux Bokor
  Widow Weaver

Use you summon to keep him busy and protect your symbols. Kill isolated models if you can and just Scheme. 

Z will die eventually, but he'll have to funnel a lot of AP to do it. You should be able to out activate him. 

[diki]

With corner symbols where would you place your symbols?

Do the schemes affect your choice?

[SEV]

22 hours ago, diki said:

With corner symbols where would you place your symbols?

Do the schemes affect your choice?

For me, it depend of the map, the opponent and the scheme pool (in that order of importance I think).

In the scenario above. I would prioritize elevated surfaces (since most of his crew are incorporeal so no points of exploiting other terrain feature). Because it's Daw, I would spread the symbols (2 on each side) and keep them deep, bit I would also try to not put a symbol to close to the side since outflank is in the pool. 

[Roadhouse]

New Zoraida Crew (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 5
Leader:
  Zoraida
Hires:
  Black Blood Shaman
  Vasilisa
  Bayou Gator
  Bayou Gator 2
  Bayou Gator 3
  Wicked Doll
  Gautraeux Bokor
  Silurid
References:
  Voodoo Doll
  Wanga Mojo Curse
  Mature Nephilim
  Stitched Together
  Wicked Doll

 

Gators have Stealth, Unimpeded, and Ambush. Daw hates both Stealth and Concealing. So the Gators can hide in terrain, forcing him to spend AP on movement and Focus for straight flips to hit.

Gators have Ruthless, Flurry, Execute, and Puncture. Vasi and the BBS lets you pulse 2 focus onto all the gators T1, turning them into little missiles with 2 relevant triggers. At the same time he'll have to discard to not gain stunned while he is engaged with them and Tormented really want their triggers. At the same time the BBS is growing into a Mature and Vasi is also summoning Stitched.

The Bokor is your poke target for the BBS, getting Fast and a bunch of glowy to then turn into cards and heal the new Mature to full.

[WhereIsRich]

Interesting tech all round. Lists locked in yesterday and I have gone with the silurid and summon package (will def look into the gators as well - looks like some interesting tech there - thanks @Roadhouse

this is what it is shaping up as. Playing on Saturday - I’ll post up pics and outcomes.

Copy of Mama Z And The Slinkies (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 6
Leader:
  Zoraida
Hires:
  Gautraeux Bokor
  Silurid
  Silurid 2
  Spawn Mother
  Widow Weaver
  The First Mate
References:
  Voodoo Doll
  Wanga Mojo Curse
  Gupps
  Silurid
  Stitched Together
  Wicked Doll
 

Vs

jack + grave spirit ug

Lady ligeria

guilty

guilty

hanged + grave spirit ug

monty

manos the risen

carrion effigy

 

 

 

[SEV]

Good luck!

 

My though on the game to come (note that I'm not the best Z player out here).

Deal with Manos quickly if you can. It's his only moving pieces (if he has to use the Emissary to scheme the game is going well for you). 

Don't be afraid to double stone on t1 for your summons if you have to. The doll will probably double attack you Bokor than die for a card. Just make sure that it dies next to WW so you don't waste a walk for your summons.  If you don't need the fast on the Bokor t1, activate him before the doll.

On t2+ you should have someone within 12" of Z so that means you can use doll tricks (especially good against jack).

Use the terrain as much as you can with the doll. It loves hazardous terrain. Also, you probably already know that, but paying a life is part of the cost on its attack trigger. So you have at least 2 free ping on your Mojo target... Jack doesn't like that. 

Edit : also copying whisper truth can be situationally good (if you have a 8 to spare). Also copying the Hanged tactical can mess with Jack healing. 

 

Let us know how it went!

[WhereIsRich]

Hi Folks 

thanks for the input - writing up notes tomorrow. Cliff notes where - scheming went well and ended up 8/3 - could have been 7/4 or 5 with a few things going Jacks way

cheers!

R

[Docb]

15 hours ago, WhereIsRich said:

Hi Folks 

thanks for the input - writing up notes tomorrow. Cliff notes where - scheming went well and ended up 8/3 - could have been 7/4 or 5 with a few things going Jacks way

cheers!

R

I think you just enjoyed making my Hanged run round in circles for the first couple of turns....

[santaclaws01]

On 5/13/2021 at 4:03 PM, nomoredroids said:

Don't use Threads of Fate unless you want Daw to heal back to full.

Looks like this got overlooked, but Daw can't heal from Threads of Fate as it's the players discarding and drawing, not any models.

[nomoredroids]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Looks like this got overlooked, but Daw can't heal from Threads of Fate as it's the players discarding and drawing, not any models.

Oops! Good catch.