Tiny Terrors format (aka, cheap stuff only)?

[MrPieChee]

I feel like this is pointing to a flat summoner ban rather than an expensive totem ban - is it worth just saying you can't take a master that is a summoner instead? Perhaps leave in henchmen summoners (there's not many, and they're very limited). Although, if just removing a totem makes the summoners playable, then perhaps that's better?

IDK, just brain vomiting!

[Maniacal_cackle]

18 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

I feel like this is pointing to a flat summoner ban rather than an expensive totem ban - is it worth just saying you can't take a master that is a summoner instead? Perhaps leave in henchmen summoners (there's not many, and they're very limited). Although, if just removing a totem makes the summoners playable, then perhaps that's better?

IDK, just brain vomiting!

Probably worth testing it both ways!

[Adran]

Some of it will depend on the type of player you are expecting. Some groups of players will look at the format and just naturally avoid pushing the boundaries to find where it might break. Others will look to maximise what ever advantage they can get. If your player group is of the former type, then you don't need to worry quite so much, but if you have any players of the second type then you do need to look at what happens when you try and take the format to extremes (because they will). 

I like the 2 AP master idea, as my first thought on the format is that Masters will be extremely defining of the format. Very few low cost models will be able to stand up to a master enough to prevent it just doing what it likes, so something which slows down the master is probably good. They will still be powerhouses but not quite capable of doing everything themselves. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 minutes ago, Adran said:

Some of it will depend on the type of player you are expecting. Some groups of players will look at the format and just naturally avoid pushing the boundaries to find where it might break. Others will look to maximise what ever advantage they can get. If your player group is of the former type, then you don't need to worry quite so much, but if you have any players of the second type then you do need to look at what happens when you try and take the format to extremes (because they will). 

I like the 2 AP master idea, as my first thought on the format is that Masters will be extremely defining of the format. Very few low cost models will be able to stand up to a master enough to prevent it just doing what it likes, so something which slows down the master is probably good. They will still be powerhouses but not quite capable of doing everything themselves. 

I imagine we'll get a little bit of both xD

So would be good to know the rough limits, but will see. Overall, I'd lean towards making things unplayable than letting powerhouses run amok.

Are there masters that can work with the 2 soulstone limit that people think will be particularly oppressive? Lucius springs to mind...

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I imagine we'll get a little bit of both xD

So would be good to know the rough limits, but will see. Overall, I'd lean towards making things unplayable than letting powerhouses run amok.

Are there masters that can work with the 2 soulstone limit that people think will be particularly oppressive? Lucius springs to mind...

My first guess is that a master like Justice will be deleting the enemy crew very fast, potentially 10-15 ss worth each turn if you're not careful.

That is a combination of her damage output and her mobility. 

I'm not sure what summons would be best in this sort of format (it also depends on if you use the GG2 rules or not) so I am not sure which pushes it the most. Although WW with stitched may be close, but that has ww as leader then. 

I don't know that Lucius will be that oppressive,  the quality of the AP he is funnelling will have gone down significantly. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I was more thinking that Lucius can have board presence all over the map, including decent damage. But I suppose it probably isn't good enough.

Models like Lady Justice often rely on stones, right? Once she uses up her two stones, she will be completely reliant on having the card.  And with defense 5, it seems like it should be doable to keep her locked down with things like slow + stunned? Though I guess she probably has access to condition removal xD

[Adran]

11 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I was more thinking that Lucius can have board presence all over the map, including decent damage. But I suppose it probably isn't good enough.

Models like Lady Justice often rely on stones, right? Once she uses up her two stones, she will be completely reliant on having the card.  And with defense 5, it seems like it should be doable to keep her locked down with things like slow + stunned? Though I guess she probably has access to condition removal xD

I don't think Justice relies that heavily on stones, if you plan for it. Its rare that you don't get the card in hand to leap, and on those turns when you get 2 of them, it can be worth saving one turn by turn. Outside of that she doesn't need suits (They help, but aren't essential).

 I'm speaking as a player that hasn't really played her this edition, but did use leap a lot in the previous 2 editions, often on unsuited models, so am not worried about the absence of a suit on her, and know how to use a hand to maximise actions like leap across the game. 

So I'm not all that worried about either stunned or slow on her, but there aren't many things that are going to be able to do that more than once... and even with that she is likely to be getting 2 attacks, with at least one on a straight damage flip, so likely to be putting out 8-10 damage over a 7+" area. (depending on your source, but several conditions are vs WP, where she has a 7)

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Fair points! Even if you're willing to use the red joker it is only like 80% turn one I think.

And the lack of a sudden strike trigger could be influential, as well as having to rely on flips for those severe damages. But she does seem like a likely model to break the meta (although has some weaknesses, like bone piles for example might be quite tricky for her to deal with).

Guess it just needs testing at this stage!

[touchdown]

Just theory crafting here but I suspect upgrade Masters will be the meta. Von Schill and McCabe lose almost nothing in this format, and gain the fact that you can't bring super beaters to take our their minions.

Regarding expensive totems (or 2nd master in the Viks' case): I think you should allow anyone to either take their totem or the faction effigy.

I also like the idea of limiting leaders to 2 AP.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I'm not sure upgrade masters will be that good unless they're upgrading themselves. After all, all their targets to upgrade will now be significantly weaker. Post nerf, McCabe with his upgrades is not that scary for example, and the minions he can boost are not fabulous (but they are pretty decent).

2 AP is definitely worth considering if things don't go well, but initially I quite like the epic feel of masters being just a class separate from the rest. It's like a Kaiju Clash.

[AskM3L8r]

On 5/14/2021 at 4:10 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'm not sure upgrade masters will be that good unless they're upgrading themselves. After all, all their targets to upgrade will now be significantly weaker. Post nerf, McCabe with his upgrades is not that scary for example, and the minions he can boost are not fabulous (but they are pretty decent).

2 AP is definitely worth considering if things don't go well, but initially I quite like the epic feel of masters being just a class separate from the rest. It's like a Kaiju Clash.

I was thinking that about Marcus as an upgrade Master. Most of his Key word are over 7 stones so he's pretty much omitted from this format XD

I got think about this crew:  Joss, Effigy of fate, Tool box, 2 Mecharachnids, 6 Steam Arachnids - that'll leave 2 stone Cache.

Tool Box is the only insignificant model - should be chaotic.

[SEV]

7 hours ago, AskM3L8r said:

I was thinking that about Marcus as an upgrade Master. Most of his Key word are over 7 stones so he's pretty much omitted from this format XD

You can play Crocket, 2 initiate and 4 corrupted hound and call it Marcus Pack 😀

[Maniacal_cackle]

Marcus can also run Wisps or Hoarcats.

In my experience, Hoarcats are a LOT better in games where they're not killable by a single activation by every enemy beater on the table.

[AskM3L8r]

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Marcus can also run Wisps or Hoarcats.

In my experience, Hoarcats are a LOT better in games where they're not killable by a single activation by every enemy beater on the table.

I forgot about wisps, Hoarcats and Molemen.