Some real issues against Obliteration

[TheKing]

Hi guys,

I'm really struggling against Tara and her Obliteration crew. I've played a couple of games against her now, and I just don't see it...

Anything that comes close ends up buried (and is then beaten up by her entire crew beforen it can resurface again). And if I try to accomplish something for strats or schemes, it's either buried and put back in the most inefficient spot possible, or there will be one of the Obliteration models innthe way, because he unburies it in front of me...

The crew seems to be too good at making it's own models crazy efficient because they don't need to spend a lot of AP moving, AND too good at making my models crazy inefficient because I DO have to spend a huge amount of AP just moving around (trying to, anyway).

Any thoughts or experiences?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Huh, I've never had a problem with them (other than Don't Mind Me on Tara and her just ignoring my crew and scoring).

Any sample list of you/your opponent? What crews do you usually play?

[TheKing]

Since we're all relatively new to the game, we're still trying stuff out. But this is the first crew I (we) have come across that we don't see any counterplay to...

In the games we've played, he used basically the same list:

Tara
Karina

Scion
Aionus
Talos
Nothing Beast

Hans
Prospector

As of now, I've only played Molly against him, with either a more 'minion Molly' crew (Archie with GST, Marshall with Whisper, Rabble Riser,  Night Terrors/Crooligans, Effigy) or a more 'elite Molly' crew (Rogue Necromancy with GST, Archie with GST, Philip for anti-fast, Night Terrors/Crooligans, Effigy).

My big problem is that when I try to achieve something with my models, he charges into those models with something that can bury them, and at the end of that turn that model is dead because everything can hit it. Even if my model survives that turn, It comes back up in the most impossible spot, so that it spends another turn to even get back into a position where it can do something. That coupled with his ability to be basically all over the board (or disappear when I try to actually engage) is very hard to play around for a newbie like me 😅 I compared it to trying to fight a puff of smoke.

I also have Kirai and Seamus, but I haven't tried those into Tara yet.
 

[touchdown]

5 hours ago, TheKing said:

I compared it to trying to fight a puff of smoke.

In the Tabletop Talk Deep Dive on her, that's basically how Cody described them too (from the perspective of using Tara). The things he said he worried about the most were crews with raw natural speed (mentioned the Viks in Outcasts). You need to be able to run across the board and either get your points or punch the models that aren't buried.

Another thing is that Obliteration has major hand pressure. If you can force like 2 discards a turn, you might find they have a lot of trouble doing what they want to.

Finally, this might be too obvious but hold onto cards to pass Glimpse the Void duels. A 9 might not stop them from hitting you, but it will mean you don't get buried.

[Maniacal_cackle]

A few tips:

Positioning:

The best way to not die to things is... To not let them hit you. Molly's crew is incredible at positioning. With Leap, Archie can stay pretty safe, and crooligans can teleport around the board so can stay somewhere safe as well. Molly herself can be quite hard to hit, and is typically on the back line.

Ideally you'd have a few more good positioning models (like Dead Rider), but even with the base crew your positioning advantage should be pretty good.

Whenever I have played against Tara, he has only been able to make me take 2-3 duels to pass the flip. Careful with Archie, as he needs a 10+.

Activation control:

Related to positioning is activation control. Generally important things tend to happen at the end of turns (for the first turn and last turn) and at the start of the turn (turns 2-5). You should usually be able to win initiative, so you can pick what gives you the best control (usually it is best to go second on turn one).

Molly has an additional trick where she can reactivate a minion or two. This gives you a few extra activations. There's no harm in having a crooligan hang out near Molly and drop a scheme marker + focus, then be reactivated. It is better to stay safe than to rush in and die.

Also use pass tokens when necessary.

Now of course, Tara is one of a handful of crews in the game that can match Molly on activation control, so you may still find that she gets to activate last. However, working to do activation control well should mean that her window to abuse you isn't as big.

Card draw:

A major strength of Molly is you can draw tons of cards (Sometimes as much as eight). There's a few tricks to know here:

• Necrotic machine can use up your whole hand, and strange behaviour your opponent's hand up, then accomplice into Molly. If you time it well, they draw a few bad cards and you get a full hand. Just make sure to save one card to discard to accomplice into Molly.
  • Note this has a tension with activation control, so use it carefully.
• Crooligans can drop scheme markers near Molly, which she can then eat with Lost Knowledge.

Since you need to be passing lots of duels to not bury against Tara, make sure you've got the card-draw aspect of the crew down so you have plenty of cards.

That's just some basic tips. Hard to give anything specific without seeing like a video or a specific example, but I hope this helps!

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also worth noting that in Malifaux, it is generally balanced so that if models can hit you, you're going to die.

So sometimes you just have to accept one of your models is going to die, and kill one of theirs in return. If you can make sure you're keeping up in kills, you may still stand a chance (especially in a Molly crew that can score points efficiently, one-for-one-ing can work with lots of crews. Just don't do it with her summons).

[Harlekin]

I usually bring the Forgotten Marshal versus summoning crews to even the odds (mainly to keep them busy) and I can imagine it should also work quite fine versus Tara, too. With Molly's card draw the summoning on the Marshal is quite reliable. And a Rabble Riser is a really threatening Minion (especially so, with Molly's Constructive Criticism including a Focus for the Riser). 

[TheKing]

Good advice! I'll ve the first to admit that my own bad plays are a big part of this issue 😅

Especially the card draw trick with Necrotic Machine sounds very strong (when applied correctly ofcourse).

I'll give the Marshal another go. I had horrible luck the last time I used him (also against Tara), when he only summoned ONE Rabble Riser the entire game. But with better hand and draw management, that should change.

Just "One More Question" (sorry 🤣😞 you mentioned that I should usually be able to win initiative. In the games that we played, Aionus generated him a ton of passtokens, that he then didn't spend on anything. On my side, I usually didn't have any left because he quuckly had more activations (and it's a rule that if you can't activate a model, you HAVE to spend a pass token, right?). So he ended up with a +4 bonus to initiative, just from pass tokens. So I was curious why I should be winning initiative.

[Maniacal_cackle]

21 minutes ago, TheKing said:

Good advice! I'll ve the first to admit that my own bad plays are a big part of this issue 😅

Especially the card draw trick with Necrotic Machine sounds very strong (when applied correctly ofcourse).

I'll give the Marshal another go. I had horrible luck the last time I used him (also against Tara), when he only summoned ONE Rabble Riser the entire game. But with better hand and draw management, that should change.

Just "One More Question" (sorry 🤣😞 you mentioned that I should usually be able to win initiative. In the games that we played, Aionus generated him a ton of passtokens, that he then didn't spend on anything. On my side, I usually didn't have any left because he quuckly had more activations (and it's a rule that if you can't activate a model, you HAVE to spend a pass token, right?). So he ended up with a +4 bonus to initiative, just from pass tokens. So I was curious why I should be winning initiative.

Oh, sorry, yeah I was thinking generally and forgot that Tara is better at initiative. But you will usually be in a better position to cheat for it round one.

Also if you kill Aionus, he will struggle again.

[Adran]

If you have no models left then you don't need to spend pass tokens to pass. But you will still risk losing to Aionius. 

My advice against Tara is looking at see where she has less control. Her burying is all on simple duels, so you can save cards to stop it.You also need to know when to save it. Sometimes you can just activate the model and unbury straight away with little loss. Her friendly unbury ( and therefore her summon) relies on her getting fast on your models, so fight those duels and consider holding back activation of models that you think your opponent wants to use as unbury points so if they are made fast you can just activate them and use it. 

 

 

[Stumpyfjord]

1) Make sure you are playing with the GG1/errata updated Aionus. It added significant hand/stone pressure to the Tara crew.

You can try and force that weakness a little by stealing stones, making them discard.

2) In my experience, your murder order is Karina, Aionus, Tara. If Aionus/Tara are still alive turn 5, they’ll likely score 3. As a general rule from my current skill level, you have to pressue all summoners early turns or their AP build up gets to be too much by turn 4/5.

3) Focus on the game score and not killing as the goal. Punching smoke is frustrating. Letting smoke dissipate without achieving a real goal is less so. How can you win without punching all of that smoke?

4) Her summons start buried. If you can keep Fast off of important models, Aionus becomes the cog to let them enter play. This is another place you can try and slow down her efficiency.

She felt ludicrously unfair when I hit her in the first couple months of my playing Malifaux. It doesn’t feel ludicrously unfair now, just challenging. I assume that gets further into “normal” as skill continues improving.

Hopefully, some of that is useful, clear, and correct advice.

[TheKing]

Thanks for all the insights guys! My friend was using the GG1 errata cards, so no worries there.

We're all semi-newbies when it comes to Malifaux in my group, so finding ways to deal with certain crews is still a thing (Jack, Levi and Tara being the big names right now).  I think being overly aggressive with positioning and cards, in combination with not knowing how to correctly respond are the main reasons I got beat so badly. Your point of focusing on the points is a good one - I try to keep the mantra in my head with every AP spent: "Does this score me points?" (I just need to listen to that mantra, in stead of getting Archie killed 🤪)

The feeling of being 'ludicrously unfair' sounds very familiar indeed. Like I said, Jack Daw is also still a big problem for our small group. But the more reps we get in, the less oppressive it feels. So like you said - hang in there and keep improving that skill.

Cheers 

[Urbin]

As a cool trick you can hire Anna Lovelace to prevent their models from unburying (since unbury is a place) near your models

[bigbopper]

Another hire to consider is Vincent. Out of keyword he is 10ss. However he is great at taking out summons with his crossbow. 
I haven’t played Against Tara this edition so it’s just a theory at this stage. But he may be helpful?