Taelor: What is She Missing?

[Maniacal_cackle]

23 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

P.S.  I agree Puncture is a great combo with From the Heavens to get 12 damage on a soulstone user!  One question... how?  That's not how triggers work.

Here you misunderstood.

You can do 6 damage that can't be stoned away at all, or you can do 12 damage that can be stoned to prevent but not down to a minus (so you get the 12 to start).

Although again note that I initially did come with the caveat that this works much better with focus and card draw.

But I was just taking issue with your claim the triggers are the problem.

I've won plenty of games with puncture giving me straight flips on henchmen and just deleting them from the board.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Rabbitknight said:

Counterpoint Crit Strike means even a weak is 4, or 5 with a stone, it's more efficient to use that high card to hit, and deal more damage no matter what than use it to cheat damage. There may be fringe cases where the plus flip is better because you're going to resource dump, but most of the time the more efficient trigger will be better.

I'm not sure I agree. I think if focus gave+1 damage rather than then it wouldn't be used as much.  I'm starting to question the assumptions made to get the numbers because surely it differs depending on what you are comparing.  That probably hinders puncture more but I think I rate the ability to control the final amount is more useful than just extra damage.

Maybe I'm still thinking of cheating in red jokers from previous editions...

[Maniacal_cackle]

26 minutes ago, Adran said:

I'm not sure I agree. I think if focus gave+1 damage rather than then it wouldn't be used as much.  I'm starting to question the assumptions made to get the numbers because surely it differs depending on what you are comparing.  That probably hinders puncture more but I think I rate the ability to control the final amount is more useful than just extra damage.

Maybe I'm still thinking of cheating in red jokers from previous editions...

Totally agree with this.

Being able to look at your hand and say "well, my opponent is taking X damage unless I flip a black joker" is really, really good.

[RisingPhoenix]

Focus generally shouldn't be used as much as it is.  Way, way too often I see people focus and then attacking when that's basically never the correct move.  If focus gave +1 damage it might get used less often... but that'd probably be people using it closer to the correct amount.  You should never be focusing then attacking unless you specifically plan to cheat the attack and damage to outright kill a model.  I see people just focus then flip with no cheating.  

As for the "assumptions" used to get the numbers, I assumed a 54 card deck with distribution 1-13 and 2 jokers.  If you don't agree with the math, you're wrong (math is extremely binary that way). 

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I generally take the view that you should be aware of all the uses for the text on a card. Since Malifaux gives you an unusually high amount of control over the flow of the game, you should be prepared to abuse every bit of text on the card.

Knowing how to use something in edge cases is very different from highly valuing the edge cases.  One is squeaking a bit of extra advantage out of a model in an unusual situation, the other leads you to make poor decisions because you're overvaluing events that occur rarely.

I see this sort of thinking from people a lot.  They remember one game where a model did something incredible, and forget the five games where it got shot off the board or ran around being irrelevant.  Bandidos with the old wanted criminal were a great example - I'd hear people advocate for them all the time because one game they drew a bunch of cards and got off a like 3 extra shots.  They forget that time it ran forward, shot, and then was knocked off the table because it's 7 soulstones made of tissue paper, or that time they had to lurk it around behind a house taking potshots and they finally drew a card with it on turn 4.  

If you bring rock solid models that fill a defined role in your crew, you'll have good results.  Then you can use your cleverness to get a little bit extra out of them.  But don't use cleverness to talk yourself into bringing something silly because "I can do cool things with it!"  You can probably do cool things with something that's well statted and serving a role in your crew efficiently.  

 

 

Also someone who doesn't play Viks thinking Viks are flush with card draw and extra cards as well as easy ways to get focus... yeah, this discussion is getting pretty nonsensical.  Man I wish there was a nice way to say "you have no idea what you're talking about" but there isn't, so I'm just gonna say it.  The Viks not having card draws or easy ways to get focus on their crew outside of the inefficient "take a general action" is one of the annoying things about them.  They're a card hungry crew that doesn't get those cards.  I get that those abilities are better when you're playing Molly, because you can just draw a brand new hand.  That's really awesome.  It'd probably be better here if you could do that too.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Also someone who doesn't play Viks thinking Viks are flush with card draw and extra cards as well as easy ways to get focus... yeah, this discussion is getting pretty nonsensical.  Man I wish there was a nice way to say "you have no idea what you're talking about" but there isn't, so I'm just gonna say it.  The Viks not having card draws or easy ways to get focus on their crew outside of the inefficient "take a general action" is one of the annoying things about them.  They're a card hungry crew that doesn't get those cards.  I get that those abilities are better when you're playing Molly, because you can just draw a brand new hand.  That's really awesome.  It'd probably be better here if you could do that too.

Sounds like a roundabout way of saying that maybe the triggers aren't actually the problem? 😜

I've consistently seen extreme damage with the puncture trigger, masters/henchmen deleted by denying soulstone reduction, and games won with pushes (across many crews and several factions).

5 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

As for the "assumptions" used to get the numbers, I assumed a 54 card deck with distribution 1-13 and 2 jokers.  If you don't agree with the math, you're wrong (math is extremely binary that way). 

I think the point was that these are silly assumptions.

The whole power of puncture is getting to that straight flip, so trying to dress it up as something that only affects the odds of cards flipped is not really capturing the essence of the trigger.

My impression is that you're trying to boil puncture down to a bad version of crit strike, instead of assessing it on its own merits.

[RisingPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Sounds like a roundabout way of saying that maybe the triggers aren't actually the problem? 😜

Well, no.  The triggers are a problem specifically because they aren't great triggers on their own and the "uses" for them involve spending resources the Viks don't have.  Which is why changing them to less resource intensive triggers would be useful.

I really shouldn't have to say this, but different crews have different levels of use for a trigger.  Mei Fang's crew might really like a trigger that drops a scrap marker.  McMorning might like you to drop a corpse marker.  Von Schill would have zero use for either of these.  So a Von Schill model having them would be useless, and I shouldn't have to specify "well it'd be okay on a different model in a different faction". 

So yeah, the triggers are very mediocre on Taelor when she's played in the Viks crew.  Which isn't the sort of shit you have to specify normally when having conversations with people, but then you get on forums and holy shit you get absolutely the most pedantic just... where do we find these people.   

This conversation is effectively done.  Yeah the triggers would be better on a different model in a different crew.  Fine.  This is about Taelor, with a subset on "when brought in keyword in the Viks crew" (since there's no need for a model to be good OOK).  

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I think the point was that these are silly assumptions.

The whole power of puncture is getting to that straight flip

 

To spend resources the Viks can't afford to spend anyway.  Great.  So we could change it to Critical Strike and then it'd be a better trigger for her to have.  Congratulations on writing about a thousand words to backup my point.

 

[Trample]

36 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

 So yeah, the triggers are very mediocre on Taelor when she's played in the Viks crew.  Which isn't the sort of shit you have to specify normally when having conversations with people, but then you get on forums and holy shit you get absolutely the most pedantic just... where do we find these people.   

This conversation is effectively done.  Yeah the triggers would be better on a different model in a different crew.  Fine.  This is about Taelor, with a subset on "when brought in keyword in the Viks crew" (since there's no need for a model to be good OOK).  

Well, I guess I'm one of those nonsensical forum morons, because I think the puncture trigger on a 3/4/6 henchman with stat 7 is a pretty good trigger. It's good because you don't need focus and rely on any crew support. So in a crew that isn't throwing out focus Taelor has the ability to reliably (at the cost of your hand) deal 6 damage. That is powerful. Reliability is game changing in many instances. Stat 7, the ability to stone for the ram, and the ability to cheat the severe to remove a model is awesome. Way better in her profile than crit strike would be. All day long. 

[Azahul]

Yeah, look, I'm not a big fan of Taelor. If forced to choose I will usually grab Bishop instead. I do think she could use something more.

 

But adding Crit Strike to her profile doesn't read as the solution to me. Puncture means she can guarantee any 6 health model that ends its turn within 14" of her (16" if the Start Phase is coming up) is all but guaranteed to die. Crit Strike wouldn't give her that, it would make her better in the centre brawl instead. The sort of situation where consistency over many attacks needs to be hire to wear down a tankier foe. But as the Viks you don't want to get bogged down into protracted brawls.

 

Yes, it would burn resources the Viks can't easily replenish, but it does fit the style of the Keyword better.

[Azahul]

A small thing but could we maybe increase her and Barbaros's Bring It stat to 6? Two Cost 9 Henchmen in faction both having an unreliable Bring It action just seems weird. It's not really what either model wants to be doing with their AP (Barbaros does more so than Taelor at least), might as well make it work consistently when they use it?

[RisingPhoenix]

The triggers wouldn't fix everything.  The other half of what I said was to add Flurry and fix the triggers - so she's not quite as card dependent on attacks.  Although Flurry costs a card... honestly dammit Taelor. 

I mean really people, she's in a Viks crew.  You're spending your cards and stones on the Viks, not on her.  Because they're your master.  So stop pretending that she's the Valedictorian and the Viks are Von Schill - we don't have a support master sitting in the back line, we have a combat master, and we don't ALSO have resources to support her (Viks 2 are also not a support master - a huge missed opportunity).   The fact that she also compares poorly to other options at the same stone price is just salt in the wound, and the wound is you can't spend cards and stones on Viks and Taelor.  

If you buff her up to be good you might be able to justify her in Viks 2 because there's only one master, and because Viks 2 are generally less squishy (and therefore need less stones to live).  But Viks 2 are still combat masters, and still like cards, and still have better triggers like Critical Strike and Sweeping Strike.  Oh and their tiny support addition?  Hands out focus - that thing that Puncture lets you imitate (argh Taelor...)

This is why you see a lot of competitive Viks lists run things like multiple Ronin and Vanessa and some versatiles - the Ronin scheme, the Viks scheme but also hit really really hard, Vanessa is a utility support piece.  Taelor is just so in the wrong spot.  Frankly if you buffed her the way some of you are suggesting she'd be better out of keyword than in it.  

P.S.  There's no justifying Knock Aside over Shove Aside.  Not on Taelor.  She should have Shove Aside.  Knock Aside is for 6 cost schemy models.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I mean really people, she's in a Viks crew.  You're spending your cards and stones on the Viks, not on her.  Because they're your master. 

Well, maybe there's the problem.

Henchmen are usually designed to need support or resources (which is why being able to use stones is relevant). If you're not willing to invest resources into your front-line henchman, then a front-line henchman is not what you're looking for.

Also, incidentally, I don't believe any henchman (or any other non-master in the game that builds in its suits) has access to min-3 shove aside. That seems over the top for sure. Especially at stat 7.

[RisingPhoenix]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, maybe there's the problem.

Henchmen are usually designed to need support or resources (which is why being able to use stones is relevant). If you're not willing to invest resources into your front-line henchman, then a front-line henchman is not what you're looking for.

Yes.  Maybe the problem is that she's not a henchmen that fits into her own keyword.  

That is actually... an enormous problem.  

And if any buff to her revolves around keeping her card and stone dependent, she'll continue not to fit into her keyword.  That's ANOTHER reason Puncture doesn't work on her.  Viks 2 can put focus on her, which overlaps in the puncture space is just salt on the wound.  

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Also, incidentally, I don't believe any henchman (or any other non-master in the game that builds in its suits) has access to min-3 shove aside. 

Mate.  Mate are you kidding me.  Mate... you're a resser player, right?

Have you ever heard of this model named The Valedictorian?  

[RisingPhoenix]

Also the Valedictorian has a support master so you can much more easily justify spending cards and stones on Puncture.

Also the Valedictorian has flurry.  

Also the Valedictorian got nerfed and still has all this.  

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Yes.  Maybe the problem is that she's not a henchmen that fits into her own keyword.  

That is actually... an enormous problem.   

Well, for your style of her, but multiple competitive players here use her to great success (for example, Axelst from earlier in the thread used her in the semi-finals of the World Series and absolutely smashed his opponent despite some serious setbacks).

2 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Mate.  Mate are you kidding me.  Mate... you're a resser player, right?

Have you ever heard of this model named The Valedictorian?  

Well, first off, Valedictorian is min 2, not min 3... So I believe my statement was correct?

But I think most people would agree Valedictorian is overtuned and is not where the benchmark should be set.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

That's ANOTHER reason Puncture doesn't work on her.  Viks 2 can put focus on her, which overlaps in the puncture space is just salt on the wound.  ?  

Sorry, could you explain this?

Puncture is MUCH better with focus. Why would this be a problem that Viks2 give her focus?

[RisingPhoenix]

Just now, Maniacal_cackle said:

Sorry, could you explain this?

Puncture is MUCH better with focus. Why would this be a problem that Viks2 give her focus?

what? Puncture's main purpose, according to you is to let you get to a straight flip so you can cheat... and I just remembered you're a resser player and 90% of your models have Hard to Wound.  😛  (Seriously, I was typing that out thinking "why would you need Puncture and Focus?  Unless a model has Hard to Wound... *facepalm*")

Okay, against most factions you're usually only on a single to damage, so you can use focus OR puncture to remove that if you want to cheat damage.  Using both is irrelevant if you plan to cheat (and we already established puncture is much worse than crit strike if you don't).  

As for the Valadictorian being overtuned?  Nah.  The stupid teleporting undergraduates that followed her were overtuned.  Now you need a Mask.    The sheer swinginess of killing a model and getting a model at the same time... well that's still there, but it costs you a high card so you're not using that high card to cheat an attack.  You can't give the Valedictorian fast and get FIVE attacks (Fast, Flurry, Shove Aside).  At least not easily.  The Valedictorian?  She's not the issue.  Good combat models need to be good.  I was joking earlier about going about nerfing Archie and the Valedictorian and Ototo and everyone until Taelor looks good... and it's still a joke.  Good models are still good.  And believe it or not, I think Wyrd added some good nerfs to Schtook.  

(is Studied Opponent still too good?  Eh... card drawing is very, very good.  It lets you use things like Puncture triggers to cheat damage more easily... hey wait.  But honestly I think Schtook is in a good place.  Are the Viks?  Maybe.  Is a good Viks crew gonna bring Taelor?  Nah)

[Maniacal_cackle]

Sorry, to clarify... The point of puncture is to get straight flips on models that normally can't easily be straight flipped.

Every faction has soulstone users, and straight flipping against them is usually extremely difficult. 

With focus and a puncture trigger, you can now straight flip a soulstone user.

On top of that, since you're on a positive they won't normally stone you down, and sometimes not even cheat you down... So you often end up flipping 2-3 cards and may not even need to cheat the severe.

Then there's from the heavens. So taelor has more tools for killing models that rely on soulstones than almost any other model I've seen.

But yes, I grant that as a Resser player I value double positives to get past hard to wound more highly than most people.

But for example Taelor can shred Archie, hanged, madame sybelle, crooligans, wandering river monks, and many other models that normally feel invincible.

So that's why I usually am scared of her and prioritise killing her (and if she is the target of my attacks, the Viks have a bit more breathing room).

It all depends on how much you value:

• Killing of things that normally have tricky defensive tech.
• Drawing heat from your viktorias
• Having an additional portion of the board threatened.

Watching Axelst play in the semi finals with Taelor for instance made me go "wow, there are so many threats in so many places the opponent is screwed no matter what they do."

Axel being able to spend the Viks chasing a flank to kill critical models was fine, as then when the brawl suddenly shifted to the centre Taelor picked up the slack while the Viks raced back into the action.

That said, I'm a filthy Resser for a reason. It certainly is a lot more relaxing just having invincible models that plod along and can do five 2/4/5 attacks for instance.

(Although amusing thing to note - it is actually less resource intensive to make Taelor fast than to make Vale fast).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also for reference my goal for puncture users is usually two focus over the course of the game.

One is easy (move focus turn one for a big turn two). Especially if you make Taelor fast after activating for huge threat potential turn 2, although that is a style I've done with other crews.

Two focus... That's possibly more challenging, so for her I can imagine one focus over the entire game might have to suffice if you're not using a scavenger or something.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

 

As for the "assumptions" used to get the numbers, I assumed a 54 card deck with distribution 1-13 and 2 jokers.  If you don't agree with the math, you're wrong (math is extremely binary that way). 

 

I meant your claim puncture adds 0.6 damage. 

Do you mean the difference between negative damage and straight damage on taelors profile is 0.6? Or are you also looking at the difference between double negative and negative and straight and positive? And if so what are your expectations on each situation occurring. 

Because puncture will give different values for each of those cases. I expect the negative to straight is best and I expect that is the one with the figures of 0.6, but I don't know because there isn't a single answer to the question how much does puncture add to your damage without you making some assumption to the situation. 

I also assume you are expecting only 1 ram, because I don't believe the value of each ram in puncture to be equal. 

[RisingPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I meant your claim puncture adds 0.6 damage. 

Do you mean the difference between negative damage and straight damage on taelors profile is 0.6? Or are you also looking at the difference between double negative and negative and straight and positive? And if so what are your expectations on each situation occurring. 

Because puncture will give different values for each of those cases. I expect the negative to straight is best and I expect that is the one with the figures of 0.6, but I don't know because there isn't a single answer to the question how much does puncture add to your damage without you making some assumption to the situation. 

I also assume you are expecting only 1 ram, because I don't believe the value of each ram in puncture to be equal. 

Negative to straight.  That's the highest tier of improvement.  Straight to positive is similar, only slightly worse (second chance to flip red joker slightly trumps black).  If there were no jokers it'd be identical.  Bell curves are cool.  

Double negative to negative is far worse for puncture - both are very likely to be min even with the trigger.  Double positive is of course diminishing returns (and more red hunting).  

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Sorry, to clarify... The point of puncture is to get straight flips on models that normally can't easily be straight flipped.

Every faction has soulstone users, and straight flipping against them is usually extremely difficult. 

With focus and a puncture trigger, you can now straight flip a soulstone user.

On top of that, since you're on a positive they won't normally stone you down, and sometimes not even cheat you down... So you often end up flipping 2-3 cards and may not even need to cheat the severe.

Then there's from the heavens. So taelor has more tools for killing models that rely on soulstones than almost any other model I've seen.

Uh.  So if you spend a focus and then a stone on a puncture trigger, they'll stone the damage.  If you spend the stone on a From the Heavens trigger, they'll stone the flip.  

It's neat you think you can stop both, but you can't.  Like you actually literally cannot.  You declare triggers ages before the damage step, and they can always pick one.  They can give you the plus on the flip and stone the damage easily.  Or if you declare from the heavens they can stone the flip.   

This does not work at all the way you think it does.  They'll always be able to use a stone to prevent damage in some way.  And of the two From the Heavens is far more impactful than puncture as it forces them into the worse one while puncture lets them use the better one.  You cannot use both together though, not ever.  

[Maniacal_cackle]

Somehow if it still isn't clear...

You don't use puncture and from the heavens together. They're two different tools that give you different angles of tackling soulstone users (and hard to wound).

You could of course argue that they end up being somewhat redundant, but it still makes Taelor very scary for anyone who uses stones (or hard to wound) to survive.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Although I've also sorta ignored the other puncture trick (use focus one swing, puncture the next, 12 damage will delete most enforcers off the board).

This trick mostly doesn't apply to Taelor I assume due to the lack of card draw, so she doesn't have access to the other trick I haven't really covered.

But it will come up some turns of course because sometimes you happen to draw a few severes.

[Rufess]

It is a huge but interesting question. I don't know how to calculate it so I wrote a script to simulate it. I ran 10 million time for each following cases and calculate the average damage(missed attack counted as 0), and the result is:

• Not cheating damage:
  • With neither trigger: 2.89
  • With Critical Strike: 3.72
  • With Puncture: 3.43
• Cheating damage:
  • With neither trigger: 2.93
  • With Critical Strike: 3.76
  • With Puncture: 4.60

 

Here is the code I wrote for the test. Everyone is welcome to check if I had made any mistakes or if want to test with different parameters. What my code does is basically:

1. set the Attacking model at stat 7 and 3/4/6 damage.
2. set the Defending model at stat 5.
3. both models draw 6 hands.
4. both models flip for the duel
5. if the Attacking model is winning the duel:
   1. the Defending model will always cheat the highest card in its hand.
   2. if needed the Attacking model will try to cheat the second high card in its hand, if it is not enough to win the duel, it will instead cheat the highest card.
6. If the Defending model is winning the duel:
   1. then both models will cheat in the highest card in their hand.
7. the Attacking model will always cheat the damage flip to higher if able.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Rufess

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, Rufess said:

 

1. if the Attacking model is winning the duel, the defending model will cheat the highest card in its hand. The Attacking model will cheat the second high card in its hand.

Won't cheating the second highest card result in a lot of misses? Or am I misunderstanding?

[Rufess]

13 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Won't cheating the second highest card result in a lot of misses? Or am I misunderstanding?

Updated my original post with more detail. The Attacking model will only cheat if necessary.