Rezzers in Fauxvember!

[Paddywhack]

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

 

16 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Toshiro is too resilient for a 9ss model + all that he brings (probably the toughest 9ss model in the game)

He is not even in the same league as Mortimer for toughness, but I take your point about him being somewhat hard to remove. Although last time I played him I was against Leveticus, and removing him was trivial for that crew xD But I think Toshiro is just bad against Outcasts anyway, so probably shouldn't have brought him in (since their Emissary hands out Don't Mind Me upgrade).

To the main point - given that he can summon Ashigaru to protect himself, I can see there being an argument that if he needs a nerf, you should either hit his survivability or the OP combos (aka, Chiaki).

That said, he is SO hand-intensive. If you use a card to summon and Take the Hit twice, you've used half your hand for the turn for this one part of your crew...

There are so many 9ss models are as tough to take down (Phiona Gage, Ashes and Dust, Montresor, Coppelius, First Mate, Fingers). His toughness is right in line with other good 9ss models. And he's only 9ss for Yan Lo, for everyone else he's 10ss. 

He is card intensive and slow. Yes there are ways to keep him moving, but then you are purposely hiring models and using extra AP to keep him relevant - upping his perceived cost. His biggest thing is his summon and yes, Ashigaru are very good. any summoning is good, especially if you have a way to heal the model. However, Take the Hit requires yet another card. It's useful, but man I run out of cards in hand fast this edition.

Changing how his summon works might be needed, but I'm not even sure of that. I'm not sure what a summon upgrade would do other than help a small number of models? Maybe a summon upgrade that makes them Slow every turn? Make them unable to heal the turn they are summoned (Brittle)?

I still think Toshiro is fine as is - there are so many other things that need attention imo. 

The biggest thing that broke him with Yan Lo was the addition of Split the Soul on Chiaki, which happened after beta so I'm not sure it was tested enough tbh. It kinda breaks Yan Lo as a whole. 

[touchdown]

9 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Changing how his summon works might be needed, but I'm not even sure of that. I'm not sure what a summon upgrade would do other than help a small number of models?

That might be all that's needed. As long as there is counter play. Plus Wyrd could release more models with anti-summon upgrade tech (or anti-upgrade tech like Tormented have)

[ShinChan]

19 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

There are so many 9ss models are as tough to take down (Phiona Gage, Ashes and Dust, Montresor, Coppelius, First Mate, Fingers). His toughness is right in line with other good 9ss models. And he's only 9ss for Yan Lo, for everyone else he's 10ss. 

He is card intensive and slow. Yes there are ways to keep him moving, but then you are purposely hiring models and using extra AP to keep him relevant - upping his perceived cost. His biggest thing is his summon and yes, Ashigaru are very good. any summoning is good, especially if you have a way to heal the model. However, Take the Hit requires yet another card. It's useful, but man I run out of cards in hand fast this edition.

Changing how his summon works might be needed, but I'm not even sure of that. I'm not sure what a summon upgrade would do other than help a small number of models? Maybe a summon upgrade that makes them Slow every turn? Make them unable to heal the turn they are summoned (Brittle)?

I still think Toshiro is fine as is - there are so many other things that need attention imo. 

The biggest thing that broke him with Yan Lo was the addition of Split the Soul on Chiaki, which happened after beta so I'm not sure it was tested enough tbh. It kinda breaks Yan Lo as a whole. 

Ashes and Dust? Coppelius? None of those is a henchman. Fingers?! Please, if someone wants Fingers dead, he will die without much problems. Toshiro is slow? What about Motresor then? Toshiro can have a big impact on the game while not even being in combat. Mv 5 is not slow, and both Yan Lo and Reva have plenty of ways to get him in the center without even need to walk a single time. He actually provide a lot of action efficiency with Daimyo's Gift.

Ashigarus doesn't even need Take the Hit to be great defense pieces (2" melee range + Extended reach). Ashigarus have Armor + HtK and they basically heal 1 for free every turn if they want (Vile Reclamation on other friendly model). He's not card intensive, he requires a 10+ to summon, and you usually don't even want to summon in turns 4-5. Foul Mouther Motivation and Daimyo's Gif are going to be topdecked more than 55% of the time.

And I'm not complaining about everything, but Toshiro needs to bring those Ashigarus at 1Wd (and with summon upgrade) or needs to be easier to take down, because he's too tanky for all the benefits that he brings.

[Maniacal_cackle]

20 minutes ago, touchdown said:

That might be all that's needed. As long as there is counter play. Plus Wyrd could release more models with anti-summon upgrade tech (or anti-upgrade tech like Tormented have)

Honestly Wyrd should have a neutral summon upgrade with no limit that does nothing.

If a model is summoned without an upgrade, it gets that neutral upgrade.

Issue fixed for all summoners with no reprinting of cards.

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Ashes and Dust? Coppelius? None of those is a henchman.

To be fair, if you're counting soulstones as defensive tech, you can't really treat Toshiro as a 9-cost model. He is pretty likely to use a few stones during a game - he is frequently at least a 12-cost model for me when taken OOK.

[ShinChan]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To be fair, if you're counting soulstones as defensive tech, you can't really treat Toshiro as a 9-cost model. He is pretty likely to use a few stones during a game - he is frequently at least a 12-cost model for me when taken OOK.

He doesn't even need to use them, the fact that he can use them is what forces decisions on the other player, since he can't know if he's going to be able to kill Toshiro, even if his whole hand are severes.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, ShinChan said:

He doesn't even need to use them, the fact that he can use them is what forces decisions on the other player, since he can't know if he's going to be able to kill Toshiro, even if his whole hand are severes.

Fair point, the threat of using them is definitely a factor.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another thought on Toshiro is that he is the best turtler in the faction.

So since GG1 has a lot of pools that encourage turtling on a particular point (especially a pool like flank recover evidence with claim jump and leave your mark), Toshiro is a bit stronger than he was last season.

Removing one of those schemes could have a bit impact on his relevance, so I'm not certain he will be as strong next season.

[Paddywhack]

33 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Ashes and Dust? Coppelius? None of those is a henchman. Fingers?! Please, if someone wants Fingers dead, he will die without much problems. Toshiro is slow? What about Motresor then?

Ashes and Coppelius don't even need to be Henchman to compare. And Fingers has Df6 with Squeel built in - good luck killing him quick. Phiona is a Hench with 10 wds and Montressor matches or better Toshiro for resilience (their move is the same so a wash - and 10wds to boot). Those are just some 9ss models with similar staying power, there are others, especially if you go up to 10ss, which is where Toshiro usually is. 

I'm not saying he's not good, but hardly OP. He supports minions - without minions he's not delivering much. Yes, he can be good, but he can be just as much a resource sink with minimal impact. 

A 10+ still needs a 10+ that isn't getting used somewhere else. And I have had plenty of turns where I didn't draw a 10+, let alone multiple. So yeah, I still call him resource intensive. And those other abilities that hit about half time, miss about half the time too. I don't know how many times I've flipped below a 6 for Foul-Mouth and have to cheat it.... 

Once you get around his Terrifying he's no different than a lot of other resser models. And terrifying is really good this edition, so yeah, he's not eay to take out, but hes a 9-10ss model. He should be good (look at poor Sybelle....).

Just going to have to disagree. Heck, for a while in Beta his summon only needed a 9. 

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

Ashes and Coppelius don't even need to be Henchman to compare.

Lol... Coppelius is a 9 Wds enforcer with nothing but Terrifying to avoid damage; if any decent beater get in range he has 0 staying power. He got regen and feed on fear to survive a bit longer; but that doesn't help to avoid getting bursted in 1 activation. And Toshiro's bonus action is way better... those 2 are not in the same league.

[Maniacal_cackle]

28 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Lol... Coppelius is a 9 Wds enforcer with nothing but Terrifying to avoid damage; if any decent beater get in range he has 0 staying power. He got regen and feed on fear to survive a bit longer; but that doesn't help to avoid getting bursted in 1 activation. And Toshiro's bonus action is way better... those 2 are not in the same league.

I think there's an argument that Coppelius has better survivability in a vacuum with agile and 7mv, but that kind of demonstrates how subjective it all is anyway.

It is all irrelevant though. Serena Bowman is the 9 stone model that has amazing survivability in that keyword. (Jokes, I know she is 8-cost).

[Ogid]

8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think there's an argument that Coppelius has better survivability in a vacuum with agile and 7mv, but that kind of demonstrates how subjective it all is anyway.

I wouldn't bet for him tbh XD. I personally don't take Coppelius most of the time for how glassy he is... it's amusing seeying him pictured as a "Tough to take down" model.

13 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Serena Bowman is the 9 stone model that has amazing survivability in that keyword. (Jokes, I know she is 8-cost).

This is a better comparison, and even her isn't as hard to kill as Toshiro is when Ashigarus start hanging around and he has a few SS.

[Paddywhack]

3 minutes ago, Ogid said:

"Tough to take down" model.

Can't kill him if you can't catch him, or hit him.  

[Ogid]

8 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Can't kill him if you can't catch him, or hit him.

Haha, the problem is there is usually an ENTIRE enemy crew between him and the place where he needs to go score (and while he has good movement and agile, he lacks flying or leap so it's not that easy to keep him out of danger or cross areas fast enough) and hugging the border of the table isn't the best use for those 9SS.

[Paddywhack]

7 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Haha, the problem is there is usually an ENTIRE enemy crew between him and the place where he needs to go score (and while he has good movement and agile, he lacks flying or leap so it's not that easy to keep him out of danger or cross areas fast enough) and hugging the border of the table isn't the best use for those 9SS.

He's not working alone. Use some of his guys to make a lane for him. He also hits pretty hard with a 3/5/6 dmg track and stat 7. He's a good model with good abilities. So is Toshiro. I just don't think Toshiro is a real problem, especially when so many of our other models are below par. 

Though, thematically, what if Toshiro's attached a summon upgrade something like:  Brittle Bones - During the End Phase this this model suffers 3 dmg ignoring Hard to Kill. You have to either put in resources to keep them alive or let them die. Might have to make his summon a bit easier then. Just spitballing though - still don't think he's a real problem. Fix Chiaki so Yan Lo is solved and so what if he performs better with Reva? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Does anyone know how Toshiro actually performed in the tournament?

He seemed super solid on round 3, situationally solid round one, and not very useful round 2? That's not an overpowered spread.

[Ogid]

15 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

He's not working alone. Use some of his guys to make a lane for him. He also hits pretty hard with a 3/5/6 dmg track and stat 7. He's a good model with good abilities.

IDK... I struggle to find a place for him in my lists; only in a few of them and basically built around him; he lacks something.

15 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

So is Toshiro. I just don't think Toshiro is a real problem, especially when so many of our other models are below par. 

Though, thematically, what if Toshiro's attached a summon upgrade something like:  Brittle Bones - During the End Phase this this model suffers 3 dmg ignoring Hard to Kill. You have to either put in resources to keep them alive or let them die. Might have to make his summon a bit easier then. Just spitballing though - still don't think he's a real problem. Fix Chiaki so Yan Lo is solved and so what if he performs better with Reva? 

Toshiro is way better, but hey! Enjoy him while you can!

I'd also like to see at least non-master summoners limited a bit (and that includes the ones I play like Minako or WW); they are already good models, the ability to to put 2 models in the table in one turn isn't needed and may be opressive (WW struggles to find the scrap to that, but that might change with new releases)

[Mycellanious]

On 11/23/2020 at 4:31 PM, IronmanKC81 said:

I agree make the dead rider revel damage uncheatable and hes perfectly fine. Mech Rider is busted beyond belief and every time I hear someone defending it or try to tell me the dead rider is better I start to hear white noise and I just want to say "you know you're wrong"

 

I find this hilarious because people kept saying the Mech Rider was terrible, and when I defended it I was told by Ressers that the Mech Rider was worse than 2 Necropunks for 1 SS more

[Ogid]

5 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I find this hilarious because people kept saying the Mech Rider was terrible, and when I defended it I was told by Ressers that the Mech Rider was worse than 2 Necropunks for 1 SS more

Even if stone by stone the rider were a bit worse than one of the (or the) best schemers in the game, there is still room to be very good at it.

But the Rider can cover a wider range of roles that those 2 Necropunks like giving card draw, reactivate a beater or solo Research Mission to name a few, plus Ride with Me.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Mechanical rider isn't THAT overpowered by itself IMO (though it is very good, reactivating a model is probably better than the Dead Rider's ult in most games).

Mechanical rider with soulstone cache is bonkers. Imagine if Dead Rider could use soulstones and start ulting on turn 2. Not to mention the tankiness factor.

[Mycellanious]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Mechanical rider isn't THAT overpowered by itself IMO (though it is very good, reactivating a model is probably better than the Dead Rider's ult in most games).

Mechanical rider with soulstone cache is bonkers. Imagine if Dead Rider could use soulstones and start ulting on turn 2. Not to mention the tankiness factor.

Ahh but see now with the cost of the upgrade and the stones you are spending you need to compare that cost to THREE necropunks. Or so I was told.

[Ogid]

54 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Ahh but see now with the cost of the upgrade and the stones you are spending you need to compare that cost to THREE necropunks. Or so I was told.

Lol, but they are not wrong tho; if the rider want to use the 5 suit trigger each turn from turn 2 that will be at least 15SS considering also the cost of the upgrade, which start to enter into second master's cost range.

But again, the Rider is way more versatile than those 3 Necropunks; and for being only 1 model, it can drop from 3 to 4 schemes per turn if it uses the reactivate on itself. The rider can do other things during the game and then burst drop them the last 2 turns when the other player will have a hard time denying all of them. By that time it's easy that 1 or 2 Necros are already dead.

 It fends off quite well in the scheming part imho, even if it's true Necropunks will drop more markers than 1 MRider.

[NoahScape]

15 stones, that does soooo much. You can reactivate a model to gain activation control, that could be a peacekeeper... while scoring you a point in a turn. I've seen that rider win games almost single handedly. 3 necro punks will never do that. 

 

[NoahScape]

On 11/24/2020 at 7:06 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Does anyone know how Toshiro actually performed in the tournament?

He seemed super solid on round 3, situationally solid round one, and not very useful round 2? That's not an overpowered spread.

I didn't use him at all in November, but that doesn't take away from him being good. I would say not OP. He does 1 thing really really well, and thats support minions. 

 

Also, brittle bones as an idea sounds nice, but 3 damage ignoring hard to kill is ridiculous. Just make its defense -1 with that summon upgrade or something.