Just a Rat...?

[James Dyson]

Hey folks!  Malifaux Rats have the 'Just a Rat...?' ability, which lets you activate a rat, end it's activation, eat an enemy pass token, and activate another model immediately.

The rules for Chain Activations suggest that you can only ever use 'Just a Rat...?' twice in a row, because "...Some effects can cause models to Activate after another model. If a model would Activate this way, immediately go back to the start of Step C. Players may not Activate more than two models in a row this way, unless they are Activated by the same effect."

Is that a fair interpretation of the rule?  Or are Malifaux Rats able to go in sequence, eating pass tokens until you've activated a non-Malifaux Rat?

[Scoffer]

Your interpretation is correct - only two rats in a row. Effects with the same name and same text but printed on different model's cards are two separate effects, not the same one.

[NoahScape]

Its a good question, but I think its covered in a blanket statement that says players may not activate more than two models in a row this way. Technically, you activate a model, eat the pass token, then activate another model and thats your two models in a row. Another model didn't activate between the two rats. 

Thats how I view it, maybe I'm missing a key wording or something somewhere else. Either way it could use a FAQ just to clear it up. 

 

[Jesy Blue]

I've always upheld to the Chain Activation ruling. 

As I typically use 12 Rats, taking 1 turn to just completly wipe out an opponents pass tokens would be kind of a dick move.

[diki]

I'd never really considered this as chain activation but the limit makes sense I guess.

Can you use "Just a Rat" twice in a row, just to eat two pass tokens, and just ignore the chose anther model to activate effect (as you can't then activate that model)?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I'm not sure "just a rat" is a chain activation.

Chain activations by definition return you to step C of the activation process (and involve selecting an unactivated model).

Just a rat doesn't specify unactivated model, it tells you to select a model. So either you're supposed to go to step B and select an unactivated model (which isn't a chain activation) or you're doing a chain activation that allows you to select a model that has already activated?

For reference, see accomplice which specifies unactivated model.

Not sure what the intention is though.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Overall I assume the idea is that a rat can skip its activation to force the opponent to use a pass token.

If the idea is the opponent is using a pass token, that would indicate you're supposed to treat it as separate activations?

Pretty ambiguous though.

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

I've always upheld to the Chain Activation ruling. 

As I typically use 12 Rats, taking 1 turn to just completly wipe out an opponents pass tokens would be kind of a dick move.

This way is actually stronger for the  Hamelin player. Let's say you've got 6 models +12 rats to your opponents 8+10 pass tokens.

Activate a rat, use just a rat to activate another rat who uses just a rat.

6+10 vs 8+8

Opponent activates a model, 6+10 vs 7+8

You repeat with rats: 6+8 vs 7+6

Opponent activates, 6+8 vs 6+8

You repeat, 6+6 vs 6+6

Opponent activates, 6+6 vs 5+6

You repeat with rats, 6+4 vs 5+4

I think the picture is clear at this point. You're forcing the opponent to spend activations faster than you are, because with the chain activation limit you're only activating twice to their 3

[NoahScape]

The rat activates, and you end the rats activation without doing anything but force the use of a pass token. Another rat activates. Thats two models by one crew activating back to back. Another model wasn't activating in between the rats activating. Granted, there appears to be some room to be a rules lawyer, which is why I'm always quick to say I wish Wyrd would just put out monthly FAQs just to clear up little things like this, and they can go into an errata whenever they do those. 

Maybe its too much work, or too much information going out into the community, but it seems better than having these discussions and then asking TO's to make snap judgments. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

This way is actually stronger for the  Hamelin player. Let's say you've got 6 models +12 rats to your opponents 8+10 pass tokens.

Activate a rat, use just a rat to activate another rat who uses just a rat.

6+10 vs 8+8

Opponent activates a model, 6+10 vs 7+8

You repeat with rats: 6+8 vs 7+6

Opponent activates, 6+8 vs 6+8

You repeat, 6+6 vs 6+6

Opponent activates, 6+6 vs 5+6

You repeat with rats, 6+4 vs 5+4

I think the picture is clear at this point. You're forcing the opponent to spend activations faster than you are, because with the chain activation limit you're only activating twice to their 3

Thanks Santa. I was just thinking about this issue and you spelled it out really clearly!

Seems weird if rats can make you eat two pass tokens AND activate. That is huge activation control.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

I've always upheld to the Chain Activation ruling. 

As I typically use 12 Rats, taking 1 turn to just completly wipe out an opponents pass tokens would be kind of a dick move.

Well, the idea of the ability appears to basically be that you're supposed to be able to ignore the model for pass token calculations if it does nothing that turn.

So I think it is reasonably within the spirit of the rules to start the turn going "my rats don't count this turn, they'd don't activate and you don't get pass tokens."

And then the rats are essentially the same as having the board covered in rat markers.

It is actually one of the best designed things in the game to deal with the cheap model/pass token issue IMO.

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, IronmanKC81 said:

The rat activates, and you end the rats activation without doing anything but force the use of a pass token. Another rat activates. Thats two models by one crew activating back to back. Another model wasn't activating in between the rats activating. Granted, there appears to be some room to be a rules lawyer, which is why I'm always quick to say I wish Wyrd would just put out monthly FAQs just to clear up little things like this, and they can go into an errata whenever they do those. 

Maybe its too much work, or too much information going out into the community, but it seems better than having these discussions and then asking TO's to make snap judgments. 

But would pass tokens in general be subject to this interpretation? Where if I activate, you pass, then I activate again. Could I not use Accomplise on my 2nd activation? And can you not pass a 2nd time, since then its 3 chain activations in a row?

[NoahScape]

The use of the pass token is an ability used by the Hamlin player, not the same as using a pass token and its in the rules as the same effect. You can't use the same effect to activate more than two models in a row. That kinds falls into that category in my opinion. 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

The use of the pass token is an ability used by the Hamlin player, not the same as using a pass token and its in the rules as the same effect. You can't use the same effect to activate more than two models in a row. That kinds falls into that category in my opinion. 

 

That rule applies to chain activations, which it isn't clear if this is a chain activation.

And as Santaclaws points out, ruling it this way (you can't do all your rats in a row) breaks the game and enormously favours Hamelin. 

[NoahScape]

If it breaks the game then why not just do that because you don't have to activate them all in a row? It becomes a moot point, and Hamlin breaking the game? Shocking. 

 

[Mycellanious]

15 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

The use of the pass token is an ability used by the Hamlin player, not the same as using a pass token and its in the rules as the same effect. You can't use the same effect to activate more than two models in a row. That kinds falls into that category in my opinion. 

 

Just FYI, I believe you are misquoting the rule. You cannot activate more than two models in a row UNLESS they are activated by the same effect, not "you cant use the same effect to activate more than two models in a row." So as an example, the Dead Rider has a Trigger to remove any number of Corpses to summon Zombies, which then all Chain Activate. So he can Summon 3 Zombies and Activate all of them, which is 4 models in a row. However, you would be unable to Accomplice into an Accomplice (or Accomplice into a Companion, or Mech Rider Ult into Mech Rider Ult), because that is activating 3 models in a row from 2 different effects (2 instances of the Accomplice effect). 

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

If it breaks the game then why not just do that because you don't have to activate them all in a row? It becomes a moot point, and Hamlin breaking the game? Shocking. 

 

You can't do it (under the ruling you can activate them all in a row).

What breaks the game is this:

• Rat uses "just a rat"
• Opponent loses pass token, Hamelin gets another activation.
• Rat uses "just a rat"
• Opponent loses pass token, Hamelin can't gain another activation because of chain activation ruling.
• Opponent activates.

At this point, Hamelin has only done two activations to the opponents three.

The consequence of this is Hamelin can guarantee last activation (or indeed, several activations). This is one of the most powerful things a crew can do in Malifaux.

If you think Hamelin is strong now, wait til he can position every aura in the middle of your crew and luring your models into position at the end of the turn when you literally cannot activate a single model as he does 3-4 models in a row.

[NoahScape]

So where is the rule that says you can't use accomplice 4 times in a row considering its the same effect?

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, IronmanKC81 said:

So where is the rule that says you can't use accomplice 4 times in a row considering its the same effect?

 

Same effect refers to same instance of the effect (like Dead Rider). 

Effect is generally poorly defined in Malifaux, but I think there may be an FAQ on it? Regardless there is broad consensus on not being able to accomplice twice in a row.

[NoahScape]

Thats fair, I just don't see the difference between that ability and accomplice other than the pass token piece.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Thats fair, I just don't see the difference between that ability and accomplice other than the pass token piece.

 I agree it is a bit ambiguous, and we are all just giving opinions on this one.

I forgot to state the standard advice for all ambiguous rules in Malifaux:

Talk it over with your opponent. try to arrive at a conclusion you both think is fair. If you can't agree, we can try to offer our opinions.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Thats fair, I just don't see the difference between that ability and accomplice other than the pass token piece.

Oh, as for the difference, there are three main ones for the rat issue:

1. The highly technical argument (that this doesn't follow the format of chain activations because it goes to step B, not step C).

2. The rule of intent (the rats appear to be designed to bypass the cheap model/pass token issue).

3. General principle of not abusing rules to do broken things (Santaclaws above spells out how treating rats as chain activating enormously favours Hamelin. If it still doesn't make sense I could walk you through an example on Vassal, the digital Malifaux app).

[NoahScape]

I understand it. Thank you for the offer.

[Fjord]

Has there been any update on this or general consensus? It seems kinda gross that rats can essentially create activation control 

[ShinChan]

On 11/10/2022 at 10:53 PM, Fjord said:

Has there been any update on this or general consensus? It seems kinda gross that rats can essentially create activation control 

Well, it's the same way that they can be used to gain activation control by the opponent, or summon Lampad (as a ridiculous example) out of one of them. But going back to the topic, that's the consensus until Wyrd makes a statement at least.

[bnf]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:53 AM, Fjord said:

It seems kinda gross that rats can essentially create activation control 

That's their purpose though, isn't it?