Design mistakes in individual profiles

[Ogid]

On 10/2/2020 at 8:00 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Thoon's Frozen Trophy Trigger doesn't offer a resist flip, either. Compare to Glimpse, for example. It just happens and it can affect Masters (and the resulting pillar can be chucked a massive distance away). I think that it should have a simple duel to resist the effect, though it could be extremely high. Or it should be non-Master.

Not everything powerful has to not be intended and it can be balanced in several ways. I don`t know well some of the other cases you listed but Frozen Trophy is good example of that. Also I personally don't want a game with dopplegangers of each other abilities, because one ability/trigger has a TN not everything that does something similar has to have it.

On paper it sounds awesome, but in practice it is balanced by the model and crew that trigger is in. Thoon is 9SS with low damage, no way to get extra actions, a very situational bonus action and he is in a crew where anti-marker tech is expected (and also under normal circunstances you can't froze something and toss that pilar away and any model can remove it, even engaged insignificant ones) and it'll cost him 1SS most of the time. So getting good use of that trigger is not easy at all.

I've been asking for him in the NVB forum and the answers I got range from situational 20% pick (in his own crew) to glorified roadbock and I've not seen him picked as OOK. Frozen Trophy in a vacuum is awesome, but give that trigger a TN and Thoon will be lost on the shelf forever (it doesn't help Savages and Chimera are leading and neck to neck in the race for the least successful NVB keywords)

On 10/2/2020 at 9:01 AM, Adran said:

And if I remember there are 3 models out there that automatically break the even activation on both sides, the duet, Molly and Tara. 2 of these are masters, and the third is the highest costed non master in the game. Re-activate was a Colette thing previously, and I think its fair to say that if the double activation of the duet wasn't the intended way, then the designers made some weird choices in never putting out a version that wasn't allowed to get 2 activations during the public beta, and the model isn't well costed for its abilities with out the reactivate. (Would it have felt less strange if it was spelt out on the cards, rather than hidden  in following the replace rules correctly)

I agree, the duet getting 2 activations is clearly intended; but it can go unnoticed for someone not familiar with how replace works. Also this kind of got already errated, the new replace rules avoid the 4 activation combo with the rider, now only 3 are possible.

Another example of models breaking the even activations is the entire Youko keyword (from turn 2 or 3 when the other player start revealing the schemes at least) and any other model able to generate pass tokens like some of Misaki's models (Yamaziko specially as she has the trigger built in) or the lone swordman.

On 10/2/2020 at 10:20 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Other effects which do damage based on conditions or tokens tend to be capped, though. I'm thinking of stuff like Brewmaster, McMourning, and Lynch. I can't think of any other effect in the game that has uncapped damage like that but it might very well that I'm forgetting stuff.

I personally would like every effect having a cap (even if it's a really high one like 6 or 8), but as long as it's hard to set up I don't have much problems with it.

On 10/2/2020 at 2:27 PM, LexLock said:

• Serena Bowman's Bottle of Painkillers can be used on herself, which is probably intended design if I'm honest, but they could make her a lot less ubiquitous by changing it so that it only works on other friendlys.

For Serena the biggest problem is the lack of other options, if a NVB player wants healing or defensive condition removal (2 things you usually want in a crew versus a lot of things), she is the only real option in the faction for a lot of crews (on top of being one of the few models not made out of glass). If NVB ever get some decent cheap support, she will show up a lot less. Tanuki+Low River vs Sun Quiang in TT is a good example of this.

On 10/2/2020 at 2:27 PM, LexLock said:

• "Fiendish Gamble" on Stitched was looks like a way for them to tip the scales on their "Gamble your Life" attack but since it can be used outside of their activation you can just store up high cards with the rest of your crew and use them for defensive flips, which makes them a bit efficient IMO for a summoning keyword that should be feeling hand pressure.

On 10/2/2020 at 3:39 PM, Adran said:

Since you asked for people to disagree  - I think fiendish gamble was put in because people were worried about removing good cards from their deck with lucid dreaming. Honestly I think that was people not understanding the odds, but it was something that a lot of people complained about. Personally I think Lucid dreams was a bit too god anyway to need a safety valve, but this safety valve is too efficient. Stick it on an Insidious madness and its not such a bad thing.

Fiendish Gamble is probably intended as it is, stitched got heavily tonned down during GG1 but that remained, and with his Df lowered to 5 he is also now worse defensively; remove also that form him and he will be near to useless. Also most summoning keywords have hand relieving abilities, from ton of card draw to easy  to duels.

On 10/2/2020 at 2:27 PM, LexLock said:

Ikiryo's Kirai's Soul Ability (lets her be summoned by Kirai) seems like it should have one of those if Kirai Ankoku is this crews Leader clauses to stop a hired Kirai from getting a free Totem.

Even if it's true Kirai's free totem feels a bit too much; that would be too harsh... either increase Kirai's cost a few SS or change that ability to only work when both are hired; both solutions achieve the same while still giving her the ability to summon the totem as second master.

[Math Mathonwy]

13 hours ago, Ogid said:

Also I personally don't want a game with dopplegangers of each other abilities, because one ability/trigger has a TN not everything that does something similar has to have it.

These sorts of comments make conversing with you a bit taxing. Do you honestly believe that

1. The change suggested would mean that the game would slide into "dopplegangers of each other abilities"? Or
2. That anyone in this thread would want the game to slide into "dopplegangers of each other abilities"?

That sort of stuff just doesn't accomplish anything.

As for your actual content - as I said, this isn't a matter of being overpowered. Thoon should probably get buffed. To pick a ridiculous example in order to illustrate the point, a model that would have an Action "Shuffle your deck and then flip a card which cannot be cheated. If it is a Joker, you win the game, otherwise you lose the game" wouldn't be overpowered but it would be a horrible design as the effect of the ability is way too powerful.

So arguing that the ability is fine because Thoon sucks or arguing that the ability is fine because altering it would lead to doppelgangers are both IMO weak arguments.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with liking the ability and considering it good design. I think that it is such a powerful effect that there should be more degense available for really expensive models against it and it all in all kinda goes against the general design direction of the game's current version but it is OK to disagree with those assessments as they are very subjective.

Back in first edition Hamelin (who wasn't a Master back then) had flutes that would move you towards the closest table edge and if you hit the edge, you were out of the game no questions asked. Some people thought that was OK, some didn't.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I'm confused about the concern about Frozen Trophy on Thoon.

It is an after succeeding trigger, so the attack has to actually succeed, right? That's in line with lots of other things.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

These sorts of comments make conversing with you a bit taxing. Do you honestly believe that

1. The change suggested would mean that the game would slide into "dopplegangers of each other abilities"? Or
2. That anyone in this thread would want the game to slide into "dopplegangers of each other abilities"?

That sort of stuff just doesn't accomplish anything.

As for your actual content - as I said, this isn't a matter of being overpowered. Thoon should probably get buffed. To pick a ridiculous example in order to illustrate the point, a model that would have an Action "Shuffle your deck and then flip a card which cannot be cheated. If it is a Joker, you win the game, otherwise you lose the game" wouldn't be overpowered but it would be a horrible design as the effect of the ability is way too powerful.

So arguing that the ability is fine because Thoon sucks or arguing that the ability is fine because altering it would lead to doppelgangers are both IMO weak arguments.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with liking the ability and considering it good design. I think that it is such a powerful effect that there should be more degense available for really expensive models against it and it all in all kinda goes against the general design direction of the game's current version but it is OK to disagree with those assessments as they are very subjective.

Back in first edition Hamelin (who wasn't a Master back then) had flutes that would move you towards the closest table edge and if you hit the edge, you were out of the game no questions asked. Some people thought that was OK, some didn't.

I tried to adress the fact that this thread's point was kind of "This ability exist, but this other more powerful version of it also exists, so the second one should be a mistake/OP" or "This model has this very unique ability, that should be a mistake/OP". And I was just disagreeing with that. That kind of reasonings does try to streamline stuff so everything ends "balanced" and similar to other things in the game. Overperforming/OP stuff should be adressed, unique stuff working well is designers doing a very good job.

My point was that the power of different models can be balanced in different ways and if one model has one very awesome thing, but it's in line because the limitations of the crew/model/whatever that's enriching for the game (imho) and those kind of things force players to adapt to different match up which is good for the game (again imho). All that within a reasonable limits of course, that flip a jocker and win the game feels very wrong.

But as you said this is very subjetive, I guess other people will have very different opinions, and that's fine.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, Bete Noire!

Her Rise Again ability allows her to unbury out of a corpse and take the Charge action. Great flavour, she bursts out of a corpse knives swinging.

But in practice, since charge is once per activation, it makes her movement quite awkward. Often you want to move and then charge, but you have to do the charge immediately. You also want to do things like charge an ally and bury, then burst from another corpse and charge (flavour being jumping into one bloodstream and ripping out of another corpse's bloodstream I assume). But it's just awkward.

The model would really benefit from changing it to "may take the Charge action, ignoring the once per activation restriction." Or just giving the model that ability to charge multiple times a turn.

EDIT: As is, Bete Noire is really fantastic as a scheme runner. If you're using her as a scheme runner, you end up not caring that her free charge is the only charge you get that turn. But she is clearly designed to be a murdery stabby stabber. But this one issue really destroys that role.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Archie's Mournful Memories is another weird one.

They took the suit off his leap, then gave him a bonus action to gain a suit (if he already has that suit), and he can't combine it with leap since they're both bonus. 

But he is already errata-ed so don't necessarily think they should take another crack at him anytime soon.  Other models deserve it sooner.

[Adran]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Archie's Mournful Memories is another weird one.

They took the suit off his leap, then gave him a bonus action to gain a suit (if he already has that suit), and he can't combine it with leap since they're both bonus. 

But he is already errata-ed so don't necessarily think they should take another crack at him anytime soon.  Other models deserve it sooner.

That looks like deliberate intent to not allow him a suited leap.

I believe Leap is one of the strongest actions in this game. Suited Leap on any model is a very powerful thing, and I think most people would agree as you can see because the removal of that Mask from his leap and ruthless has plummeted his use even as they gave extra things to him. 

Over the past 3 editions any model with leap has been a strong consideration when you want a scheme runner (or general mobility). If they have the suit built in, then they are considered a strong model, almost regardless of what ever else they have. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

That looks like deliberate intent to not allow him a suited leap.

I believe Leap is one of the strongest actions in this game. Suited Leap on any model is a very powerful thing, and I think most people would agree as you can see because the removal of that Mask from his leap and ruthless has plummeted his use even as they gave extra things to him. 

Over the past 3 editions any model with leap has been a strong consideration when you want a scheme runner (or general mobility). If they have the suit built in, then they are considered a strong model, almost regardless of what ever else they have. 

That's a fair point! Certainly Manos is still regarded as ridiculous, and he has a minor hoop to jump through for it.

[Cranky Old Man]

Manos is nuts, take one damage to add the required suit, then given the healing available that 1 damage isnt too bad.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Speaking of leap, it seems like a bit of a mistake that it isnt completely within. It is so weird Archie could leap so far. But I think ive brought this up before.

[Morgan Vening]

On 10/9/2020 at 6:21 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Speaking of leap, it seems like a bit of a mistake that it isnt completely within. It is so weird Archie could leap so far. But I think ive brought this up before.

Whereas I think Flight being the exception was wrong.

I'm glad they got rid of the difference between "towards" and "directly towards" from the earliest editions, and wish they'd done the same here.

Just subtract 2" from the movement of 50mm bases, 1" from the movement of 30mm bases, and case by case of 1" or 2" on 40mm bases, depending on if they needed it or not.

Would it make them more susceptible to movement attacks? Sure. Don't care. Boost them some other way, or not, Flight is awesome.

With the exception of deployment (which could have been worded differently to avoid using the term), having words like "within" be consistent across the game, is a good thing IMO.

[Rufess]

6 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Whereas I think Flight being the exception was wrong.

I'm glad they got rid of the difference between "towards" and "directly towards" from the earliest editions, and wish they'd done the same here.

Just subtract 2" from the movement of 50mm bases, 1" from the movement of 30mm bases, and case by case of 1" or 2" on 40mm bases, depending on if they needed it or not.

Would it make them more susceptible to movement attacks? Sure. Don't care. Boost them some other way, or not, Flight is awesome.

With the exception of deployment (which could have been worded differently to avoid using the term), having words like "within" be consistent across the game, is a good thing IMO.

They had tried it during the beta. But for some reason they decided to make flight completely within rather then partly within which align with other placing effect.

[muraki]

Flight being wholly within makes sense as flight is just another flavor of walk, which is wholly within.

If flight was not wholly within youd have situations like:

• walk / disengage / lures would move you a lot different than a normal flight.

If you 'reduced' everyone's movement range to account for the place you'll still see the difference between a walk / lure and a fly but you'd also see:

• mv duels would be super strong on flight models as they'll end up in a 2-4 range rather than 4-6.
• disengage failures would mean that a lot of time they wouldn't leave engagement range as you'll already be 1-2 inches down.
• It'll also require the devs to do the mental math on movements when they're creating new models, which isn't a big deal as I assume flight is a property that is decided on early, but for models where it isn't, you could end up with a flight 7 model or a walk 3 model.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Ikiryo is another one.

She allows Kirai to resummon her after she dies.

But if you're taking Kirai OOK, then you can just summon her straight off the bat without affecting your summon limit.

The net result is that Kirai is a stronger summoner OOK than when taken as a leader. Definitely doesn't feel intended.

[Adran]

37 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Ikiryo is another one.

She allows Kirai to resummon her after she dies.

But if you're taking Kirai OOK, then you can just summon her straight off the bat without affecting your summon limit.

The net result is that Kirai is a stronger summoner OOK than when taken as a leader. Definitely doesn't feel intended.

My expectations are that the "cost" of hiring kirai should include the fact she gets ikiryo. She is still a weaker summoner ook, ( with reduced plentiful on the upgrades) and that first turn she us probably wanting to steal 2 good cards. 

That's not saying it is priced right, but I think it is at least expected. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

32 minutes ago, Adran said:

She is still a weaker summoner ook, ( with reduced plentiful on the upgrades) 

Assuming no models dying (models dying favours OOK Kirai), the number of total extra AP accrued by each turn is...

OOK/IK

1. 3/1
2. 8/3
3. 14/8
4. 20/15
5. 26/24

So if I'm not mistaken, OOK Kirai gets more actions out of summons than normal Kirai, especially early game when actions matter most.

I didn't count bonus actions, which could skew things of course.

EDIT: whether this needs to be fixed or not is of course a separate issue. If so, my preferred fix is to only allow Kirai to double summon if she is the leader. Otherwise Ikiryo should be the only summon for the turn OOK.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Maniacal_cackle

[Adran]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Assuming no models dying (models dying favours OOK Kirai), the number of total extra AP accrued by each turn is...

OOK/IK

1. 3/1
2. 8/3
3. 14/8
4. 20/15
5. 26/24

So if I'm not mistaken, OOK Kirai gets more actions out of summons than normal Kirai, especially early game when actions matter most.

 

Whilst those numbers seem right, it comes with a faulty premise. According to this calculation you are better to summon Ikiryo rather than start with Ikiryo. There is nothing to stop IK Kirai doing that if she wants. Yet I think you would find that that is probably never done by players.

(If I were to make a change, I would only allowing it summoned if you hired one, but that would probably mean Kirai needed a drop in her SS cost to around 10, which would seem strange for a master). 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Whilst those numbers seem right, it comes with a faulty premise. According to this calculation you are better to summon Ikiryo rather than start with Ikiryo. There is nothing to stop IK Kirai doing that if she wants. Yet I think you would find that that is probably never done by players.

(If I were to make a change, I would only allowing it summoned if you hired one, but that would probably mean Kirai needed a drop in her SS cost to around 10, which would seem strange for a master). 

Incidentally I think that's potentially an effective tactic on Recover Evidence, since you don't want your Ikiryo holding an intel token potentially.

But to the point, you can't just compare to regular Kirai summoning Ikiryo (then she loses her totem). If you take another master as your leader, you're still getting a totem + all those summons. Keyword Kirai has stronger internal synergies and an awesome totem, but OOK Kirai is bringing more summoning power to the table (which I don't think was the design intention).

No other summoner is gaining more summon actions when used OOK that I know of. And it comes down to being able to double summon turn 1 OOK, something that Kirai can't do (she can't take another totem + summon Ikiryo).

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Whilst those numbers seem right, it comes with a faulty premise. According to this calculation you are better to summon Ikiryo rather than start with Ikiryo. There is nothing to stop IK Kirai doing that if she wants. Yet I think you would find that that is probably never done by players.

(If I were to make a change, I would only allowing it summoned if you hired one, but that would probably mean Kirai needed a drop in her SS cost to around 10, which would seem strange for a master). 

How would she be correctly priced for only 10SS?? She is still a master (so 3AP), has 12 Wds, Protected, life leech, Vengeance, stat 6 attacks (with great triggers like Coordinated Attack or Execute), a heal, a decent bonus... and she is also one of the few stat 7 summoner with quite good summons… 15SS is perfectly fine for her without taking in count the totem.

From the pair is Ikiryo the one overpriced, that model doesn't worth more than 7SS (but I understand that extra SS is for it being resumonable)

Also IK Kiray doesn't gain anything for not hiring the totem, but OOK Kiray gains 9SS to hire another model; those cases aren't comparable.

I agree with @Maniacal_cackle here, early game summons are the summons that get the most benefices (and it's also the best turn to summon because unless its a wedge deployment or the crew face a very agressive crew, there will be few interaction between players). Letting her only double summon as a master but still letting her bring 3 summons is reasonable (2 summons in turn 1 versus a third summon in turn 3 will make a huge difference while still keeping her quirk)

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Incidentally I think that's potentially an effective tactic on Recover Evidence, since you don't want your Ikiryo holding an intel token potentially.

But to the point, you can't just compare to regular Kirai summoning Ikiryo (then she loses her totem). If you take another master as your leader, you're still getting a totem + all those summons. Keyword Kirai has stronger internal synergies and an awesome totem, but OOK Kirai is bringing more summoning power to the table (which I don't think was the design intention).

No other summoner is gaining more summon actions when used OOK that I know of. And it comes down to being able to double summon turn 1 OOK, something that isn't something Kirai can do (she can't take another totem + summon Ikiryo).

In your narrow set of rules, yes you are right, Kirai as a second master can gain more actions through the summoning action than Kirai as leader normally gains. But you are focused on just the number of summoned actions gained, which is not the only relevant statistic, it doesn't count the advantage of bodies on the table, or the advantage of picking the right summon for a situation in turns 3-5 without having to kill your earlier summons or even the cost of relying on 2 summons in the first turn. 

And if the only metric you are looking at is generated summoned actions, then Leader Kirai can match if she chooses to. (Granted I can't think of an advantage to killing your own Ikiryo in turn 1, and I hadn't really thought of any advantage to not hiring your free totem).  

I'm just confused by real value of a metric that claims summoning a model is better than starting with the model (especially when you have the option to not start with the model and summon it and generally don't).

 

1 minute ago, Ogid said:

How would she be correctly priced for only 10SS?? She is still a master (so 3AP), has 12 Wds, Protected, life leech, Vengeance, stat 6 attacks (with great triggers like Coordinated Attack or Execute), a heal, a decent bonus... and she is also one of the few stat 7 summoner with quite good summons… 15SS is perfectly fine for her without taking in count the totem.

From the pair is Ikiryo the one overpriced, that model doesn't worth more than 7SS.

Also IK Kiray doesn't gain anything for not hiring the totem, but OOK Kiray gains 9SS to hire another model; those cases aren't comparable.

I agree with @Maniacal_cackle here, early game summons are the summons that get the most benefices (and it's also the best turn to summon because unless its a wedge deployment or the crew face a very agressive crew, there will be few interaction between players). Letting her only double summon as a master but still letting her bring 3 summons is reasonable (2 turns in turn 1 versus a third summon in turn 3 will make a huge difference)

I think a large part of the value of Kirai out of keyword is her ability to summon her totem. If you removed that power from her then she would suffer a big drop in her relative power. The obvious place to make this alteration is to her cost, since it (almost) only matters if you hire her OOK. 

Claiming Ikiryo is overpriced would have me asking when did you ever pay the soulstone cost to hire it? 

Since my proposal would actually give people a reason to hire it, the cost to get the two has suddenly jumped up, and since the Cost of Ikiryo is tied up to its difficulty to summon, the obvious place (to me) to alter that cost would be Kirais' cost.  That's my line of logic.

For most people it gives you a cost increase of 3ss (10+1 + 7+1 = 19. 15+1=16) to get basically the same effect, but with the advantage that you don't need that suited severe in turn 1 and save a Master AP on the first turn. That was how I generated my guessed cost of around 10. I did also comment how that seems low.  

 

I do agree that the earlier you summon a model, the greater an effect it has on the game, so altering Kirais soul to only replace the once per turn if Kirai is a leader would have an effect on the power level (And I think would probably have a greater effect, because as I understand people summon several Ikiryo over the course of a game due to death, and this suggested change would limit that re-summoning ability) 

[Maniacal_cackle]

19 minutes ago, Adran said:

In your narrow set of rules, yes you are right, Kirai as a second master can gain more actions through the summoning action than Kirai as leader normally gains. But you are focused on just the number of summoned actions gained, which is not the only relevant statistic, it doesn't count the advantage of bodies on the table, or the advantage of picking the right summon for a situation in turns 3-5 without having to kill your earlier summons or even the cost of relying on 2 summons in the first turn. 

And if the only metric you are looking at is generated summoned actions, then Leader Kirai can match if she chooses to. (Granted I can't think of an advantage to killing your own Ikiryo in turn 1, and I hadn't really thought of any advantage to not hiring your free totem).  

I'm just confused by real value of a metric that claims summoning a model is better than starting with the model (especially when you have the option to not start with the model and summon it and generally don't).

Summoning a model isn't necessarily better than starting with a model, but this is a thread about design mistakes. It seems to me a design mistake that her summoning power ramps up much (edit: faster) OOK than IK.

Getting extra models turn 3 onwards (assuming nothing dies) is not comparable to getting Ikiryo as an available summon when you don't have to 'pay' for her (by declaring Kirai leader).

In terms of design, it'd be like if Dreamer could summon Lord Chompy OOK. You'd negate one of the main reasons to hire the master (the free totem). The other reason is to gain access to the keyword, but that is often a bit weak compared to other keywords (since it is normally supplemented with strong summons).

[Maniacal_cackle]

Speaking of summoning design mistakes...

Not all summons attach upgrades, but many abilities are based on summon upgrades (like exorcism, or even Let Them Bleed).

I'm pretty sure summoned Ashigaru aren't supposed to dodge all these things in the 'spirit' of the design, but they just fell through the gaps.

[Ogid]

22 minutes ago, Adran said:

I think a large part of the value of Kirai out of keyword is her ability to summon her totem. If you removed that power from her then she would suffer a big drop in her relative power. The obvious place to make this alteration is to her cost, since it (almost) only matters if you hire her OOK. 

Claiming Ikiryo is overpriced would have me asking when did you ever pay the soulstone cost to hire it? 

Since my proposal would actually give people a reason to hire it, the cost to get the two has suddenly jumped up, and since the Cost of Ikiryo is tied up to its difficulty to summon, the obvious place (to me) to alter that cost would be Kirais' cost.  That's my line of logic.

For most people it gives you a cost increase of 3ss (10+1 + 7+1 = 19. 15+1=16) to get basically the same effect, but with the advantage that you don't need that suited severe in turn 1 and save a Master AP on the first turn. That was how I generated my guessed cost of around 10. I did also comment how that seems low.  

I understand the logic, but as you comment 10SS it's too low so it kind of refutes itself. For comparison, Toshiro is 10SS, 2 AP and can only bring Ashigarus (who are very good btw), and he is even OOK pick worthy (in fact he is a staple in a local Seamus player lists for example). 10SS for a model with 3 AP and able to bring more powerful models than a non-master summoner just can't be right.

In my case I rate summoners quite high. The main value of her as a summoner OOK is she being able to put 2 other models in the table that costs as much as her by turn 2 (it's true that costs cards, SS and initiative advantage, but it's still very powerful). After that everything she brings is a net gain, and she has interesting tools in her kit (coordinated attack in a model that may stone it is a very powerful force multiplier to name one). Adding to that the totem in turn 1 is what could push her over the edge.

I edited my post above and kind answered the Ikyro above (it seems while you wrote your anwer)... I think that totem's cost is too high to be a viable OOK pick and the reason is that's a resumoning cost, but it'd be about tweaking it into more realistic levels; for example just by giving it the versatile characteristic would bring it to a more reasonable price OOK while keeping its summoning cost as 8. But I still like more the idea of still letting her summon the totem, but restricting the double summon as second master; it's good that all masters keep their cool things, but there is a reason masters have some features behind "if this master is this crew's leader"; some could be too good.

[Ogid]

56 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Speaking of summoning design mistakes...

Not all summons attach upgrades, but many abilities are based on summon upgrades (like exorcism, or even Let Them Bleed).

I'm pretty sure summoned Ashigaru aren't supposed to dodge all these things in the 'spirit' of the design, but they just fell through the gaps.

I've been seen this before; someone comented this was evaluated during the beta but not implemented in the end. It maybe doesn't go against the fluff/spirit (exorcising a newborn pig is a bit stupid for example), but it'd be good for balance; easy come easy go.

I agree this could be a good change, either by a generic blank summoning upgrade that get attached if no upgrade is attached (this could be maybe cumbersome in things like rats, i guess?) or by a new token that counts as if the model had a sumoning upgrade for effects that specifically check for those.

However this won't affect everyone the same. Who are the ones with those kind of triggers/effects? GUI, RES and TT?

But thinking about it, Taelor already try to unsummon everything, it having an upgrade or not XD.

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, Ogid said:

I understand the logic, but as you comment 10SS it's too low so it kind of refutes itself. For comparison, Toshiro is 10SS, 2 AP and can only bring Ashigarus (who are very good btw), and he is even OOK pick worthy (in fact he is a staple in a local Seamus player lists for example). 10SS for a model with 3 AP and able to bring more powerful models than a non-master summoner just can't be right.

In my case I rate summoners quite high. The main value of her as a summoner OOK is she being able to put 2 other models in the table that costs as much as her by turn 2 (it's true that costs cards, SS and initiative advantage, but it's still very powerful). After that everything she brings is a net gain, and she has interesting tools in her kit (coordinated attack in a model that may stone it is a very powerful force multiplier to name one). Adding to that the totem in turn 1 is what could push her over the edge.

I edited my post above and kind answered the Ikyro above (it seems while you wrote your anwer)... I think that totem's cost is too high to be a viable OOK pick and the reason is that's a resumoning cost, but it'd be about tweaking it into more realistic levels; for example just by giving it the versatile characteristic would bring it to a more reasonable price OOK while keeping its summoning cost as 8. But I still like more the idea of still letting her summon the totem, but restricting the double summon as second master; it's good that all masters keep their cool things, but there is a reason masters have some features behind "if this master is this crew's leader"; some could be too good.

I honestly don't know what the true cost should be, and I don't actually expect it to change, I was spit balling a number that I would probably start at if I was going to test it. 

Toshiro costs 9 not 10. And for the comparison, Kirai can only use her protected on her summons, unless you have other ook hires, she is going to be doing 9 damage to her self during the game from her summons, she is limited to having 3 out, rather than 5 for Toshiro.

Most of her summons play off the Urami keyword (at least in that they give out Adversary and such like) so they are probably slightly below normal power levels.  I don't think its quite as crazy an amount as it first sounds. 

But a few other comparisons, The cheapest natural 3 AP model is 9ss. (Bishop). The Sow, at cost 8 can summon 3 piglets a turn, as it can have 3 AP.  

Summoners are good, but a lot of their value is tied to that summoning action, and hiring her not as leader lowers the value of the action. 

Some masters have leader only things, but not all masters. That suggests to me the reason is more about preventing crazy combinations than the thing possibly being "too good" for the game. (Although things like lowering the rare value of upgrade levels is probably to lower the power of the model when taken ook).