Grave Golem

[Trample]

Are folks using the Grave Golum and, if so, when and where? It doesn't seem to me like he has a lot going for him besides his ability to stick around (admittedly, that can be huge) for a 10 point model. He's strictly a 2ap model. His zero action isn't worth much, he doesn't have a flurry or any sort of trigger that gives him an extra attack. I can't imagine a situation where I would prefer him over a Dead Rider or Manos.  

[dannydb]

He's more survivable than either of manos or rider. Without anti demise he is almost unkilllable 

 

[NoahScape]

50 minutes ago, dannydb said:

He's more survivable than either of manos or rider. Without anti demise he is almost unkilllable 

 

   

Which makes him just a situational model. Manos and the Rider are very fast and versatile with the ability to get to vulnerable models and scheme. Grave Golem isn't that. Hes meh in  my opinion.

[dannydb]

Just now, IronmanKC81 said:

 

Well you take them for different reasons. Manos and the rider are mobile killing mashine. The Golem is an almost unkilllable tank. Sadly even in gg1 he's not that useful, was great in beta version of recover evidence (when you only dropped it when you died) 

[NoahScape]

9 minutes ago, dannydb said:

Well you take them for different reasons. Manos and the rider are mobile killing mashine. The Golem is an almost unkilllable tank. Sadly even in gg1 he's not that useful, was great in beta version of recover evidence (when you only dropped it when you died) 

I can maybe see a place for him in public enemies, but even then the model is highly situational. I could only really see myself taking him with one master, and thats Reva. Not sure where else I would put him, but I really haven't spent a lot of time thinking about him. 

 

[dannydb]

18 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

I can maybe see a place for him in public enemies, but even then the model is highly situational. I could only really see myself taking him with one master, and thats Reva. Not sure where else I would put him, but I really haven't spent a lot of time thinking about him. 

 

You could play him in seamus too

[Maniacal_cackle]

He is great when you want to dominate the centre (claim jump, etc).

His hurl corpse is theoretically useful for Reva, but haven't tried it yet.

[Trample]

Well, maybe I'll get him on the table and try him sometime. I love the model, but it's hard for me to invest 10 stones in a model that is limited to 2ap, even if he doesn't die. I'd like a model like this to have flurry or perhaps a zero to drop a corpse or bury himself. Perhaps, as someone suggested, with Seamus so I can move corpses around a bit. 

[ShinChan]

He's good for Vendetta and in Public Enemies. In Claim Jump he's situationally good (if the enemy doesn't have some sort of movement trick).

[NoahScape]

I wouldn't want him in claim jump either. He has knock aside on a mask, but you need the mask and he can't stone. If he had a toss ability or something else he would work. 

I wouldn't take him with Seamus simply because there won't be enough corpse markers to go around, and there are better options with Seamus almost every time. 

Reva would be about the only master I take him unless I was playing Mei Fang then he could be a tech pick. 10 stones is way too much for what you'll be using him for. 

[Taxidermied]

If your group plays with Dead Mans Hand allowed then Nicodem works well with the Golem.  Nico is a support master anyway so it’s no hassle spending his ap on making it fast or feeding it corpse markers instead of attacking.  In return he can palm hits off onto the Golem that will be close thanks to accomplice and Nico giving it +flips to df fuels and attacks.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Grave golem is great with claim jump, but I don't usually make him the claim jumper.

Philip and the nanny to claim jump + grave golem to zone control the centre is pretty strong.

Overall, grave golem is a zone control piece. It is too slow to be an effective beater when it chases people, but if they have to come to the grave golem it gets pretty scary.

[Thatguy]

I've looked at him a lot because I really like the model.
But,  I don't see him being that useful outside of crews that can generate lots of corpses. So Reva and Nico.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Running Molly, gravedigger + grave golem was a combo I used a lot.

Eventually I realised I don't really need corpse generation though and now just take the grave golem. 

Even if they alpha strike grave golem turn 1 after it activates, that gives until the end of turn 2 to kill something else and put another corpse on the table (as long as you're playing an opponent that drops corpses).

And even if the golem dies, if you kill off the beater that killed it you're probably even on stones.

A much more massive limitation in my experience is the lack of mobility. So he pairs well with Reva for the Shieldbearers for mobility + free focus.

[Duront]

It can hurl Mindless Zombies and Corpse Candles, which is really fun to do.

[Maniacal_cackle]

19 minutes ago, nschwier said:

It can hurl Mindless Zombies and Corpse Candles, which is really fun to do.

I've been meaning to try this! Have you done it much? Is it that useful?

It seems crazy good if you can set up a Reva attack.

[Shakyor]

As mainly a Von Schtook Player he has its uses it this Crew - especially if you want to mix it up a little. 

 

The Undergraduates are just GREAT at moving him, so it really helps you to occupy the centre. Also Von Schtook probably needs the least amount of corpse markers for himself, but often has some generation. But i admit the synergy between just the cards is not what makes im great in some games - its a very subtle game flow interaction. 

 

Most people just play Von Schtook as Nekima, mindlessly launching into the opponent. But I find that is not the best way to play him. The way I pay Von Schtook is passive Zone Control. I try to create game states where I win on the flanks unless you act, often through necro punks or undergraduates, but there are choices. If you try to contest me I can super efficiently run you over with the Valedictorian/Students of Viscera and break your back. If you dont I win. 

So most players just loose hopelessly at this point, but better players realize the way to counter this is stick close together and bum rush the support pieces and prowling hunters in the centre. So what this tactic needs is something in the centre. I dont have enough points left to just win the centre, so I need to make the opponent lose by going centre. The best way to this is make the centre highly action inefficient. 

Two of the best pieces for this are Toshiro or the Grave Golem, with their own strengths and weakness. The way I view the grave golem is that for 10SS you can ensure the opponent loses by playing centre. Its subtle and not flashy, but if you are observe the game flow carefully it can win games. That being said - it is a flex pick, which is fine. 

 

Also probably not game winners often but super fun grave golem interactions: 

- Throw that Zombie into the Enemy Crew and blow it up with Anna.

-Throw that Corpse and turn him into a Scheme Marker for some Schemes.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Shakyor sounds brilliant!

[Shakyor]

Thank you, its worth noting that is of course much less appealing against guns. 

 

This seems to be counterintuitive to a lot of people, but I often find the best way to evaluate a model is to ask how it generates value. The Grave Golem, compared to other beaters, generates value by being hit. So if you want to play him effectively, you need to find game states where the opponents best choice is to hit him. 

[Thatguy]

6 hours ago, Shakyor said:

Two of the best pieces for this are Toshiro or the Grave Golem, with their own strengths and weakness. 

Could you talk a bit about how you use Toshiro for this?

2 hours ago, Shakyor said:

This seems to be counterintuitive to a lot of people, but I often find the best way to evaluate a model is to ask how it generates value. 

This is a really good way of evaluating things. It helped me realize a lot when thinking about Somer's summoning.

[ShinChan]

7 hours ago, Shakyor said:

As mainly a Von Schtook Player he has its uses it this Crew - especially if you want to mix it up a little. 

 

The Undergraduates are just GREAT at moving him, so it really helps you to occupy the centre. Also Von Schtook probably needs the least amount of corpse markers for himself, but often has some generation. But i admit the synergy between just the cards is not what makes im great in some games - its a very subtle game flow interaction. 

 

Most people just play Von Schtook as Nekima, mindlessly launching into the opponent. But I find that is not the best way to play him. The way I pay Von Schtook is passive Zone Control. I try to create game states where I win on the flanks unless you act, often through necro punks or undergraduates, but there are choices. If you try to contest me I can super efficiently run you over with the Valedictorian/Students of Viscera and break your back. If you dont I win. 

So most players just loose hopelessly at this point, but better players realize the way to counter this is stick close together and bum rush the support pieces and prowling hunters in the centre. So what this tactic needs is something in the centre. I dont have enough points left to just win the centre, so I need to make the opponent lose by going centre. The best way to this is make the centre highly action inefficient. 

Two of the best pieces for this are Toshiro or the Grave Golem, with their own strengths and weakness. The way I view the grave golem is that for 10SS you can ensure the opponent loses by playing centre. Its subtle and not flashy, but if you are observe the game flow carefully it can win games. That being said - it is a flex pick, which is fine. 

 

Also probably not game winners often but super fun grave golem interactions: 

- Throw that Zombie into the Enemy Crew and blow it up with Anna.

-Throw that Corpse and turn him into a Scheme Marker for some Schemes.

What do you bring for Corpse Generation? Since if you're summoning with Von Schtook upgrades, means no corpses. Also the Undergraduate can remove corpses for scheme markers (with Surge trigger), while Anna and Von Schook can get you a card from a Corpse. Unless you're playing a summoner that adds a lot of bodies to the table (and it's not Kirai), looks difficult for me to see how you would have enough corpses to take advantage of all.

 

[Shakyor]

I dont know, I just really like Toshiro. I like him especially with Kirai, Jack Daw, McMourning and Von Schtook though since they have great Minions. 

As for how he plays this role, Ashigaru Summons just create continous tanky centre play. Just much more tanky and in your face than the grave golem. Especially their 2 inch engage is situationally GREAT. Also Ashigaru cover much more Ground in the Middle. 

 

[Shakyor]

5 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

What do you bring for Corpse Generation? Since if you're summoning with Von Schtook upgrades, means no corpses. Also the Undergraduate can remove corpses for scheme markers (with Surge trigger), while Anna and Von Schook can get you a card from a Corpse. Unless you're playing a summoner that adds a lot of bodies to the table (and it's not Kirai), looks difficult for me to see how you would have enough corpses to take advantage of all.

 

The Emissary is often enough on his own. 

Also Killing opponents of course. I actually dont think the Grave Golem needs as many corpse markers as people think. 

Of course I am aware of Von Schtooks use for Corpse Marker, but its more targeted and not as fluently needed. So I find it fits well enough together with the Grave Golem. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, Shakyor said:

I actually dont think the Grave Golem needs as many corpse markers as people think. 

Totally agree. Even if the opponent is going hard with taking down the grave golem, it'll need no more than 2-3 corpses per game.

And of course, more realistically, as long as there is a single corpse marker on the table in a relevant position, the opponent won't bother killing it.

In fact, sometimes I wish the opponent WOULD kill it (or I consider doing it myself) for the free teleport... But the number of deaths for a grave golem in my average game is 0.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Also, if it interests people... Here is my homemade grave golem!

The earth itself rises up, inevitable and unstoppable!