Ressers discussion for the new strategies.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Right, let's discuss the new strategies. Given that each Master is largely selected on the basis of strategy & scheme pools, there is so much to rehash! Here's my thoughts.

CORRUPTED LEY LINES

If Seamus can teleport to the blocking markers, he is going to be stupidly overpowered. I don't think he can, but there is a debate in the rules forum. Crooligans are going to be handy for teleporting somewhere and then grabbing a lodestone and shifting it to  someone else (for a total of a ~9" jump). Reva and Dead Rider seem insane here for being able to move around basically anywhere they need to be. Molly + Dead Rider can force last activations. I imagine it'll be common to see Molly blitz Dead Rider on turn 1 to grab the central marker, then have him run away start of turn 2. An easy 3 markers on standard and wedge.

PUBLIC ENEMIES

Rabble Risers are actually looking pretty good here. Only give away one token, but can kill 8+ cost models if left unchecked. Only downside is they can die again afterwards very easily... All the classic Reckoning crews are probably good here, particularly Seamus (since he can kill stuff, then run away holding onto bounties).

RECOVER EVIDENCE

Not sure yet, there are so many different possible ways to tackle this strategy... Hyper mobile Molly seems good, but with the Archie Nerf I'm not so sure. Any of the cat-and-mouse crews will be good, so again Seamus seems like an all-star.

SYMBOLS OF AUTHORITY

Toshiro. Need I say more? Just chuck him and a gravedigger into any crew and then put the rest on offense. Mobility and dancing about seem good, so again Molly, Seamus, or Kirai for just overloading everywhere on the table.

SUMMARY

Wow... I did not realise until typing this, but Seamus seems a wee bit nuts right now.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not really.

[Maniacal_cackle]

15 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Not really.

Care to elaborate? Who is good at what do you reckon?

[Regelridderen]

 

On 3/6/2020 at 4:50 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Right, let's discuss the new strategies. Given that each Master is largely selected on the basis of strategy & scheme pools, there is so much to rehash! Here's my thoughts.

CORRUPTED LEY LINES

If Seamus can teleport to the blocking markers, he is going to be stupidly overpowered. I don't think he can, but there is a debate in the rules forum. Crooligans are going to be handy for teleporting somewhere and then grabbing a lodestone and shifting it to  someone else (for a total of a ~9" jump). Reva and Dead Rider seem insane here for being able to move around basically anywhere they need to be. Molly + Dead Rider can force last activations. I imagine it'll be common to see Molly blitz Dead Rider on turn 1 to grab the central marker, then have him run away start of turn 2. An easy 3 markers on standard and wedge.

PUBLIC ENEMIES

Rabble Risers are actually looking pretty good here. Only give away one token, but can kill 8+ cost models if left unchecked. Only downside is they can die again afterwards very easily... All the classic Reckoning crews are probably good here, particularly Seamus (since he can kill stuff, then run away holding onto bounties).

RECOVER EVIDENCE

Not sure yet, there are so many different possible ways to tackle this strategy... Hyper mobile Molly seems good, but with the Archie Nerf I'm not so sure. Any of the cat-and-mouse crews will be good, so again Seamus seems like an all-star.

SYMBOLS OF AUTHORITY

Toshiro. Need I say more? Just chuck him and a gravedigger into any crew and then put the rest on offense. Mobility and dancing about seem good, so again Molly, Seamus, or Kirai for just overloading everywhere on the table.

SUMMARY

Wow... I did not realise until typing this, but Seamus seems a wee bit nuts right now.

Seamus’ Secret Passage is a ‘place’, which you can’t do with Lodestones. The crew although has plenty of pushes and Lures. And of course, since you can throw the stones 6”, Seamus can teleport into position, do his shooty stuff, while waiting for his crew to pass the Stone - and he can play havoc with an opposing lodestone carrier. 

[Trample]

1 minute ago, Regelridderen said:

 

Seamus’ Secret Passage is a ‘place’, which you can’t do with Lodestones. The crew although has plenty of pushes and Lures. And of course, since you can throw the stones 6”, Seamus can teleport into position, do his shooty stuff, while waiting for his crew to pass the Stone - and he can play havoc with an opposing lodestone carrier. 

He and his whole crew. The Redchapel keyword has so many pushes & lures. The Belles, Doxies, Madame Sybelle, and Seamus at least all of ways of moving the opponent out of base contact with the marker. They should be pretty strong in this strategy. The Belles and even Sybelle may actually see some use!. 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

6 minutes ago, Trample said:

He and his whole crew. The Redchapel keyword has so many pushes & lures. The Belles, Doxies, Madame Sybelle, and Seamus at least all of ways of moving the opponent out of base contact with the marker. They should be pretty strong in this strategy. The Belles and even Sybelle may actually see some use!. 

Seamus kills unactivated model and then you outactivate them and lure away from the marker.

I was also thinking of running some kind of lurebot in Molly, as she can also easily outactivate her opponent. As a bonus, Scarlet Temptations combo well with all Wp based attacks Molly (and Nanny) has. Actually, I was meditating on hiring a Scarlet Temptations model to Molly's crew for a long time already, but hadn't an opportunity yet.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

or you can just put Archie's new bonus action to good use, adding masks to your attack and sweeping them away.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don’t think lure is going to be the powerhouse you seem to think.
 

You’re still counting on niche scenarios to come up to make the lure useful. Belle has to be in or able to get into range and LoS. Most likely has to activate after the model you want to lure or they will just move right back. Have to save a high card that you now can’t use for Seamus who might just be able to kill said model. And you have to hope the model you are trying to lure doesn’t have some of the very common abilities that prevent you from moving them, and that they don’t have anything else in their crew that can move their own model back. Or have Cover. 

I personally think Sybelle and Belles are still garbage. I honestly don’t see any reason to change up the models he took in GG0 or the basic book scenarios.

I think it makes his Terrify action *slightly* more useful, and that’s about it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

In general I think lure is much weaker than Terrorize, but if you lure a model and they spend their action moving back, that is often good value (if you use a cheap model to lure).

But yeah, it isn't clear to me how lures are especially good for these strategies.

As for Seamus being unable to place with the lodestone: I don't think you'd need him to do the lodestone when he can so efficiently do everything else you need. Give the lodestone to other parts of your crew.

[NoahScape]

I've always wanted Seamus and his crew to be good, they're what got me into Malifaux to begin with. I see some play here with Seamus in the new schemes and strats, but I still believe hes under the curve. I want to get him on the table to check it out though. 

Sybelle is still trash. 

Belles are still trash. 

I've said it many times, distracted is good in theory until you attempt to use it. Its not built in on anything, it can be assisted away, disregarded with focus, and just isn't that good at the end of the day. There needs to be a more reliable way for belles and doxies to add distracted. 

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I’ll agree to a point. Seamus himself is not trash. He himself is pretty good. Distracted as a condition is fine, the trap is trying to make distracted do anything else. 
 

Anyway, back on topic, I don’t think the new GG document changes, at all, which masters and models are better. The same masters and models that were tier 1 are still the tier 1 models. Albus, Molly, and Kirai are still going to be cleaning up.

[Trample]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But yeah, it isn't clear to me how lures are especially good for these strategies.

Lures, I think, have the potential to be pretty good in GG1. In Ley Lines you can use them to pull models off of the strategy markers to make it more difficult for them to score. Yes, of course the model can walk right back if it hasn't activated, but activation order is a critical part of this game. A well positioned Belle, or a combination of them, can lure a lodestone-bearing model quite a ways from where it wants to be and likely engage it as well. In Ley Lines lures can also help you move your own lodestone models around. 

They could be good in Recover Evidence as well by bringing the token-holding enemies across the board to you so you can focus-kill and be in a position to retrieve the strategy marker. 

I'm not arguing that these are the best abilities in the game, nor am I making the argument that Redchapel is suddenly better than Transmortis. I do think there some pretty good uses for a 5ss model with a stat 6 lure, so I'm not so sure I would leave Belles in the trash category now that GG1 is out. I haven't put them on the table, but we'll see. 

[Paddywhack]

15 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

 

I personally think Sybelle and Belles are still garbage. I honestly don’t see any reason to change up the models he took in GG0 or the basic book scenarios.

What would make Belle's useful while still being 5ss? Build in the Distracted on the lure? Longer range again on the lure? Something else? Maybe a built in reposition on the Lure so you can pull models further away?

Just not sure how to change them that doesn't make them too good or go up in cost

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

What would make Belle's useful while still being 5ss? Build in the Distracted on the lure? Longer range again on the lure? Something else? Maybe a built in reposition on the Lure so you can pull models further away?

Just not sure how to change them that doesn't make them too good or go up in cost

Lures really work best when combined with mobility, so could give them a bonus action to move or a trigger on lure that is 'immediately, push this model 4 inches.'

That would be quite a funky trigger though.

[Maniacal_cackle]

As for GG1/leylines...

Agree, belles are worth testing. A 5 stone model that forces your opponent to jump through hoops or be destroyed is probably worth it, even if its only effect is to make your opponent jump through those hoops.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Disagree. They don’t force the opponent to do anything. If you are making the opponent jump through hoops, you forget you are jumping through hoops too. You have to hire a model that has limited and niche utility, you have to wait until those niche situations occur, then you have to be willing to spend the resources necessary to have any kind of chance to force the duel through, as opposed to just doing something else that is just as useful, but more useful more of the time. Or has attritional value, like doing dmg.

A model that can do that stuff, and just indecently has lure as well got slightly better as a result. Lure bots that don’t do such, not so much. So I see increased utility for Jaakuuna, Kabuki Warriors, The Doppleganger, and Kade. Even slightly Sybelle, but Sybelle is still 2 to 3 stones overcosted.  In Belles, which do absolutely nothing useful aside from Lure, hard pass.

Making Belles useful? Give them a universally useful but limited bonus action, similar to the Beckoner’s one, and bake some triggers into their Lure so you get some benefit on top of the reposition, since the mobility increase in the game has drastically reduced the utility of Lure. I personally think the increased mobility across the game makes the game better, so I don’t mind that Lure is reduced in utility, I just mind that certain models are being punished because of how good their thing was last edition.

If it were me I’d bake the distracted into their lure, or and or the reposition trigger, and give them a bonus action that either gave out rams to Friendly Red Chapel models engaged in an opposed duel with an enemy model within a 1” aura of the belle in question. Or instead allows a belle to put up a 6” aura that allows them to remove distracted from an enemy model in range to prevent an interact action. I think Beckoners are a very good example of what an effective lure bot should be, and anything that doesn’t rise to at least that level isn’t really good.

[NoahScape]

On 3/8/2020 at 2:30 PM, Paddywhack said:

What would make Belle's useful while still being 5ss? Build in the Distracted on the lure? Longer range again on the lure? Something else? Maybe a built in reposition on the Lure so you can pull models further away?

Just not sure how to change them that doesn't make them too good or go up in cost

Could try a stat 7 lure, or a built in mask to reliably hand out distracted. My biggest issue has always been the distracted condition itself, or the lack of reliability.  

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 3/9/2020 at 9:01 AM, Fetid Strumpet said:

Disagree. They don’t force the opponent to do anything. If you are making the opponent jump through hoops, you forget you are jumping through hoops too. You have to hire a model that has limited and niche utility, you have to wait until those niche situations occur, then you have to be willing to spend the resources necessary to have any kind of chance to force the duel through, as opposed to just doing something else that is just as useful, but more useful more of the time. Or has attritional value, like doing dmg.

For corrupted ley lines, it should be possible to position one belle to cover three different markers (albeit not from every angle).

That'll make your opponent have a very narrow window to actually land their lodestone, which is not trivial.

Granted there are other methods for doing the same thing (and I think in general terrorize is better than lure), but I don't think they should be wholesale dismissed without testing in the new environment (of course acknowledging your extensive experience with the crew).

[Fetid Strumpet]

I don’t think that would do it. Lure has significantly dropped in utility this edition. That’s not good or bad, and I think the increased mobility across the board is a good thing. And if it detrimentally affects lure, so be it. But just giving them a stat 7 Lure is lazy, and I don’t think it would really do anything to be honest. The fact that you almost always have to force through an opposed lure if it will be beneficial for you is certainly a component of why they aren’t good, but not the main one. The main one is just getting a lure effect isn’t that good.

No one hires lure bots. Lilith isn’t even talked about as a footnote. Jaakuna has Lure and it synergizes with the real reason you take her, the hazardous aura. Kade has a stat 7 Lure and in any description of him that’s always mentioned as an extra. A “oh and he also has...”. Lure has just exploded across models in all factions, and no one brings them FOR that. It’s always because it’s a nice addition. 

To make Belles good you have to make their lure, or themselves, do something that’s relevant to actually winning the game or synergies with the crew. Scarlet Seduction just isn’t a very relevant ability with how the crew is designed, and since Seamus almost always shoots with a focus, the Red Chapel killer synergy, while absolutely a good abilit, is almost anti-Synergy with the upgrade he almost always takes, The Whisper, because your attack flip then burns out all or almost all the known cards.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll keep saying it, if you want gold standards for lure bots, then Beckoners are it. They specifically synergize with the crew by giving out a free and irresistible Brilliance at the start of the game, that the entirety of the Honeypot keyword can take advantage of. That Brilliance can serve as protection for them with don’t bite the hand. That Brilliance can help against scheme runners or opportunistic scheming by allowing them to use that Brilliance as control with their a pleasant distraction bonus action. And they have two useful triggers baked into their lure, one of which gives out Brilliance, thus meaning they are getting benefit even if the movement effect is a wash, and one that gives them reposition, which means they get to move themselves around even if they are luring their own models around, and can give them the ability to lure a model at 12” and force them into an extrended walk charge on a very specific vector if the lured enemy wants to use the free movement to engage.

Want to make Belles good? Make them the equivalent of Beckoners in some way for red chapel. Make it be an actively bad idea to get caught in melee with them, in a way the entirety of the Red Chapel crew can actively, not passively, take advantage of. Give baked in triggers to their lure so they are getting actual persistent value out of using the ability, so it is worthwhile to generally, not situationally, to use the ability. Give them a useful bonus action, since I can think of very few models who are taken without one, unless they are just amazing in some other way.

And to be honest, while I’m disappointed Belles got hit with the ire stick this edition, they’ve been great models for 10+ years, and if they sit an edition out in my display cases that’s disappointing, but that’s about it. Sybelle and Bete Noire are a different matter entirely. They’ve both been awful statistical models for pretty much the entirety of the games existence. Sybelle had a period at the beginning of M2E where she was...ok for a year ish before the design of the game rapidly moved past her, so from my perspective, I’d dearly like to see those 2 improved before anything else specifically because they’ve been bad for so long.

[Fetid Strumpet]

No I think you pretty much can. It isn’t as if we didn’t have mostly the same situation with a good chunk of the other schemes and or strats in GG0. It isn’t as if Outflank wasn’t chosen pretty commonly and they could have served the same purpose, and mostly didn’t work all that well.

I mean by all means give them a try. I’m just old and opinionated. I just think trying to make Belles work just isn’t worth the time and effort, because Ressers have enough breadth that whatever effect you get out of them that you feel is beneficial, I’d argue could far more oftenly been achieved by something else, who could do it differently, but better, and with less effort.

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I mean by all means give them a try. I’m just old and opinionated. I just think trying to make Belles work just isn’t worth the time and effort, because Ressers have enough breadth that whatever effect you get out of them that you feel is beneficial, I’d argue could far more oftenly been achieved by something else, who could do it differently, but better, and with less effort.

Seamus is likely the next crew I'll buy, so hopefully I will in the next six months!

Also keen to try comboing them with better distraction engines such as rogue necromancy, drowned, or flesh constructs.

Kinda annoying that the distract-themed keyword doesn't have the best distract engine in the faction (projectile vomit).

[Fetid Strumpet]

They do actually. Doxies. And the distraction is actually a side benefit since the action melts any accumulated focus. And focus is beyond relevant at this point, and being able to nuked any that has been accumulated is very useful since it comes wrapped in a distracted package.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Jack Daw is probably amazing at corrupted ley lines denial. Staggered + lots of tricks to move enemies is pretty neat.

[Mr. Crows]

On 3/5/2020 at 10:50 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Toshiro. Need I say more? Just chuck him and a gravedigger into any crew and then put the rest on offense. Mobility and dancing about seem good, so again Molly, Seamus, or Kirai for just overloading everywhere on the table.

The Carrion Emissary would be good to generate corpse markers for him too. I don't have the grave diggers yet but would be interesting to try them out.

[DeadManTalking]

I've been stuck on Yan Lo. He and his crew just seems to be able to accomplish everything. Gokudo have been amazing as lodestone carriers in Corrupted Ley Lines. Give them some sort of defensive tech(my current favorite is Yins upgrade) and by themselves they now have 17" of movement. Yin can either dive into your enemies crew to be a nuisance or hunt down flankers that might try to snipe your Gokudo. Manos is doing a similar job or scheme running. Meanwhile Izamu absorbs as much as he can while killing as much as he can until Yan Lo is ready to join the fray. Or go there more defensive route and bring Toshiro an Ashigaru and a mindless zombie and force your opponent to waste AP walking into your crew.