The Dreamer beginner... Observations after 3 games

[SEV]

In my first post (here) I received a lot of great advice from the forum members.  I don't know if it'll interest someone (maybe other beginners), but here are some observation after 3 games. 

N.B. I do not own a lot of models yet, so I wasn't able to customize my crew as much as I wanted.

1) The Dreamer seem to be a really forgiving master. All games were won by him, 1 intro game against Parker (Turf War) and 2 games against other beginners (Mah/Idols, and Jack/Explosives). I'm not bragging (I was actually playing Mah in one of those game and my girl friend destroyed me). From a beginner’s perspective, the snowball effect from The Dreamer (summoning + lucid dreams) is really forgiving, at some point your crew just become way better than your opponent crew and that help to overcome some mistake. Also, in all those game the Dreamer crew manages to kill most of the models by tur 3/4, which put a dent in his opponent scoring capacity. 

2) You were right Daydreams are amazing (especially with ancient pact)! Beside them, I was really impressed by Copelius (For now, I only have the core box + Teddy + Deep Sleep box, so we used him in every game we played). He's decent at Scheming, but he seems really good for scheme denial.

- I have one question about his Unhinge attack : if a model is unburied when the opponent model failed his WP duel, will this give +1 damage to this attack (I assumed it does, but I just want to be sure)?

3) I summoned Alp over Stitch most of the time if I have the choice (a 9 and a 10 in hand)... Alps are just amazing at pinning the opponent and the Musk is a nice protection for other models in the scramble.  Am I missing something.

4) We're really bad at dropping scheme markers. What can I do / buy to improve this aspect of the game ?

5) The Dreamer stayed alive in all 3 games, doing his thing. He's actually really hard to kill... Maybe his opponent didn't try hard enough? Any advice getting him and/or keeping him alive?

6) Regarding the strategies, idols were the one that seems to advantage the dreamer the most (having those recurring models coming in to push those statues + AP for the initiative bonus). Turf war was trickier. We didn't play reckoning yet, but nightmares seem built to kill!

7) Regarding the schemes : hold up their forces is great, deliver a message too... In fact, everything that allowed me to score by popping a minion next to a model is perfect. I avoided anything with a scheme marker (I took dig against Jack because the other choices seem lacklustre, but it wasn't the easiest to score). 

Now, do you have any advice to improve our games with the Dreamer (any combo) as well as against him (any counters / tech) ? 

Thank!

[diki]

From nightmares: unburying models happens after resolving an attack. So won't help till the next time you use unhinge.

Stitched are amazing, in my mind Tactical action: Gamble your life is their best feature - as it gets around a lot of tech (a lot of defense tech only protects against Attack actions). But they also help if you are forced to discard a high card with lucid dreaming.

I personally like bringing Vasilisa and wicked dolls (for their scrap to summon stitched and cheap scheme potential)

But I think generally you want to use your generated AP advantge for scheming as neccisary.

One marker dropping option is Insideous madness - keep them buried for 1 turn (so they can interact after un burying) then unbury them next to an oponent where you need a marker, use scatter to push them away and then drop the marker.

[Regelridderen]

1 Yes, the Dreamer is very forgiving, when you reach turn 4-5 and your weak cards are gone from the deck, and you’re sitting with 10 models vs 4. Trouble is all those activations takes time and a routine. Its hard to finish a game within tournament restrictions.

2 Coppelius is great, unfortunately you need to resolve the action before triggers - so if you kill the target, the summons will have no base to contact and will stay buried.

3 You’re missing reading the gamble your life action on stitched and fiendish gamble. This along with Df 6 and Armor +1, the stitched have true staying power, and a good damage potential. However alps are not bad to any degree.

4 Scheme markers are a neverborn weakness. We kill, then scheme. Models like Coppelius, Poltergeist, Iggy etc. are good at denying schemes however.

5 the Dreamer is easy to kill. Just focus, give him adversary, etc. If he is discarding cards to transfer damage, he is giving up his best resource, while losing his models. His best Defense is not to be engaged, or his crews ability to move its members around.

6 Reckoning is good for nebervorn, but not as much nightmares. The Dreamer relies on summoning minions, and although stitched and insidious have decent staying power, they are still minions. Plant Explosives is also a great strat for our spiders - Widow Weaver and Bandersnatch.

7 Basically every scheme that doesn’t involve scheme markers are good for nightmares. Teddy excels at Take Prisoner, Serena loves Claim Jump etc.

ADVICE Get the full crew for Dreamer, you don’t need more. Although, there is nice synergy with the Woes - Candy and Baby Kade - so Pandora might be a nice second master. Always bring enough Stones to guarantee masks for Summoning and Your Nightmare. 

[Ogid]

Glad to hear it was useful

1) As you noticed, the key for that is Dreamer has 2 scaling mechanics (things that will make the crew stronger each turn), summoning and lucid dreams. If the crew don't face enough pressure, it'll become a real monster in later turns. Plus it has some things that need a bit time to learn how to face (terrifying, serene countenance + Protected, Gamble your life...). Maybe not more forgiving (a missplay can make you lose a glass cannon, spider or the dreamer himself fast), but versus beginners that won't apply enough pressure, a crew with 2 scaling mechanics gets out of hand easily.

2) As noted above, unbury happens after the action; it get no bonus for the unburied model. Coppelius big disadvantage is he can (and should) be taken out by a few well placed focused attacks, but he has a good kit.

3) mmm... with Coppelius/Bandersnatch Alphs may be useful to keep them alive, but Stitcheds deal more damage and are tankier. Mind Fiendish Gamble may be used with Gamble your Life to make that flip very likely to go in your way (however that will slow down your lucid dream because you will be removing some high cards for that). Gamble your life is also a tactical action, so it bypass some defensive mechanism (manipulative, serene countenance, terrifying, protected, defensive triggers...). All that make them hard to deal with for the other player (however be careful when not using fiendish gamble, that ability may backfire).

4) Yes, that's a weak point; Nightmare is better at killing and denying their points than at dropping a lot of markers. Some OOK/Versatile may help tho. Check this thread.

5) Built-in to duel, Adversary, to duel auras, supports giving Focused, Blasts/Shockwaves, several attacks (force him to discard), attack his hand (can't use protected without cards), isolate him (push/lure the model defending him)...

6) As said in the other thread, Nightmare is a versatile keyword. They are indeed killy, but they can dish out more damage than they can take (and summoners in Reckoning are tricky) tho.

7) For Deliver, remember summons cannot interact the turn they are summoned (you can wait 1 turn with the model buried tho). Some schemes are easier with specific models or OOK models; for example, a BBS may get the second point of dig almost by himself.

Some quick advices...

• For dreamer: Get Serena and Insidious ASAP. Puppets and woes go very well with Nightmare. Try a 7 or 8 minion list for a heavy LD style, WW+Bandersnatch for a more mobile crew or Vasilisa + BBS to play with a Mature and extra Focused.
• Versus Dreamer: Either kill the Lucid Dream machine early (Daydreams) or kill the big beaters early to hinder him. Bring Focused, Ruthless, abuse Gamble your life 6'' range and bring some healing and Armor if possible. Don't waste cards/AP (and heal nightmares) failing Terrifying duels or using non-focused attacks versus Terrifying models with models without Ruthless. Keep an eye in the Dreamer in case he become vulnerable (few cards in hand, no/weak nightmares near), bring ways to make him discard cards and pressure him. Remember VP is what matters at the end of the game; focus in scoring your schemes and the strategy. Some interesting tech: Attack buried models, exorcism triggers, ignore incorporeal, negate healing...

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, SEV said:

1) The Dreamer seem to be a really forgiving master. All games were won by him, 1 intro game against Parker (Turf War) and 2 games against other beginners (Mah/Idols, and Jack/Explosives). I'm not bragging (I was actually playing Mah in one of those game and my girl friend destroyed me). From a beginner’s perspective, the snowball effect from The Dreamer (summoning + lucid dreams) is really forgiving, at some point your crew just become way better than your opponent crew and that help to overcome some mistake. Also, in all those game the Dreamer crew manages to kill most of the models by tur 3/4, which put a dent in his opponent scoring capacity. 

Most games with new players have people spending far more time fighting and less time scoring than they should. Dreamer excels in these matchups, so yeah, he does super well in new player games! And even in experienced player games... Just a very strong crew overall (stitched or no stitched!)

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3) I summoned Alp over Stitch most of the time if I have the choice (a 9 and a 10 in hand)... Alps are just amazing at pinning the opponent and the Musk is a nice protection for other models in the scramble.  Am I missing something.

This is probably correct, in my view. 10s are just good enough that you really want to use them for an attack rather than a summon if possible. Alps have enough utility that you're happy to summon them (and first turn, alp + day dream is a common summon for me if I have a 12 or whatever it is). Stitched really are powerhouses, so it would be rare that you would summon an alp off a ten over an alp.

However, it can vary hugely, so maybe try it both ways and see if you're sad you used up the 10. But for my personal playstyle, cheating in a 10 on an attack and summoning an alp is better than having a spare 9 and summoning a stitched. Also worth prioritising the stitched if you don't have any, as you really want to be able to return high lucid dreams if needed.

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4) We're really bad at dropping scheme markers. What can I do / buy to improve this aspect of the game ?

It's true. If the crew wasn't bad at scheme markers, it'd probably be the most powerful crew in the game. The crew is really good at denying scheme markers, at least! So learn to abuse Lord Chompy Bits for denial. That's probably the key thing to master for scheming.

Also don't forget that Dreamer, Teddy, Lord Chompy, etc... Can all lay scheme markers! No shame in using big guys to score points (not ideal, but you sometimes have your other options denied).

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5) The Dreamer stayed alive in all 3 games, doing his thing. He's actually really hard to kill... Maybe his opponent didn't try hard enough? Any advice getting him and/or keeping him alive?

Killing Dreamer is a trap, in my view. I felt so strongly about this that I wrote a whole post about it.

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6) Regarding the strategies, idols were the one that seems to advantage the dreamer the most (having those recurring models coming in to push those statues + AP for the initiative bonus). Turf war was trickier. We didn't play reckoning yet, but nightmares seem built to kill!

Corrupted Idols and Turf War are extremely good strategies for Dreamer, IMO. Anything with defined areas of the board that he can lay claim to are really helpful. Plant explosives is probably his weakest. Reckoning... It depends on the schemes. Reckoning + claim jump + outflank is massive for Dreamer. Reckoning + five scheme marker schemes is way trickier.

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7) Regarding the schemes : hold up their forces is great, deliver a message too... In fact, everything that allowed me to score by popping a minion next to a model is perfect. I avoided anything with a scheme marker (I took dig against Jack because the other choices seem lacklustre, but it wasn't the easiest to score). 

Nailed it. Also note the positioning schemes (claim jump, outflank) are extremely good for you as well.

Glad you're enjoying yourself!

[Nagi21]

5 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

2 Coppelius is great, unfortunately you need to resolve the action before triggers - so if you kill the target, the summons will have no base to contact and will stay buried.

This is only half true.  If the target is killed you can still unbury a model, however since the legal unburying target is no longer legal, it would unbury in your own deployment zone (which lead to some interesting shenanigans).