What would you Errata? (Ten Thunders)

[Irritated Walrus]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Why are you talking about hypotheticals when I'm responding to a specific situation? Your hypothetical can't even apply to the specific situation you posted, of a person already having scored 3 points from reckoning by turn 5, while also getting shenlong down to 1 health on both turns 4 and 5(from full on turn 5), and there are still 2 monks of low river alive to help heal shenlong up to full.

 

For the cost of a chi? No. That's literally Healing Energy but with a cost.

 

If monks get a defensive stat increase as compensation, sure.

It isn’t hypothetical. I’ve seen it happen. Take a look at the OP.
 

You get Chi for free and Revitalize is a bonus action. The upgrade also doesn’t cost anything. I wouldn’t really say that there would be a “cost” for doing something with free tokens and bonus actions. 
 

I could be mistaken, but monks are already stat 5. They don’t need to have a defense that that is higher than most masters. Having Chi add a +1 to your flip would be plenty. 

[santaclaws01]

10 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

It isn’t hypothetical. I’ve seen it happen. Take a look at the OP.

So that's literally what happened? The opposing player scored 3 points by the end of turn 4, got Shenlong down to 1 wd on turn 4, and then 2 low river monks were able to heal him up, meaning they were at most 13" away from him at the start of the turn? And going into the next turn the opposing play still had enough pressure to bring Shenlong back down to 1 health? So in this scenario where the Shenlong player is getting ABSOLUTELY stomped, the opposing player gets greedy on turn 4 going for the Shenlong kill without a way to ignore HtK instead of leaving Shenlong alone and killing the other models they would need to kill anyways that are both A) much easier to kill than shenlong is even without support and B) able to keep Shenlong alive?

This is the scenario that happened? I'm supposed to look at this scenario where a shenlong player is literally hanging on by the skin of their teeth and supposed to surmise that Chi is too strong of a mechanic? This is the argument you're making?

 

25 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

You get Chi for free

Yeah, 1 per turn. Every other source of chi is gained by spending some other resource or getting damaged aside from the free chi from Shenlong's main attack. This still doesn't address the fact that you want to nerf an action into a state where it's the same as a fairly common action across the factions, but give it a cost.

 

28 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Revitalize is a bonus action.

...no it's not? Where is this coming from?

 

29 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

The upgrade also doesn’t cost anything.

It has an opportunity cost. He can't use the other upgrades available to him if he's using LRS unless he spends more resources to change it.

 

32 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

I wouldn’t really say that there would be a “cost” for doing something with free tokens and bonus actions.

Does it require a limited resource in order to be used? Yes? It has a cost.

 

20 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

I could be mistaken, but monks are already stat 5. They don’t need to have a defense that that is higher than most masters. Having Chi add a +1 to your flip would be plenty. 

...What? A lot of models have Df 6 or even 7. This is such a weird argument, masters have generally average defensive stats because they have other abilities and the ability to use stones to make up for it. Not a single monk model has a Df higher than 5. An entire Keyword of Df 4 or 5 models without some other form of defensive tech like armor or HtW that is found on models with those base defensive stats, and you want to tie their only method of getting on par defensive stats to a resource that they also have to spend on other things? In a keyword that is already considered pretty underwhelming aside from the master no less. This sounds like a spite nerf.

[Necrokamo]

It seems that the problem seems to be the need to weaken certain characters for not knowing how to face them instead of being for balancing the game (in the betas spent a good time doing that).

 Chi's mechanics require taking several activations to generate enough tokens, that is, if you give him the time to do it, it will logically be difficult to beat them because he will already have what it takes to make his game.  

Unless he only use Shenlong and a Low Monk, I don't see why you should necessarily kill only them.

[Irritated Walrus]

My criticisms aren’t out of spite. Nerfing Shenlong has been mentioned by numerous people in these forums. I should have known better than to criticize your toys in your own forum. You wouldn’t accept any suggestions anyway. 
 

 

[SerZaka]

1/2/3 healing is weaker that the cure on the low River Monk considering the trigger  . And for a weaker action you must also spend the most important resource in the crew. And using a Master AP no less. 

Edit: of course I didn't notice there was another page and this was already said

[santaclaws01]

11 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Nerfing Shenlong has been mentioned by numerous people in these forums.

Including me. You're not talking about only nerfing Shenlong though, you're talking about nerfing the entire keyword, a keyword that largely under-performs and nobody would take a second look out if it wasn't for Shenlong.

 

13 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

should have known better than to criticize your toys in your own forum. You wouldn’t accept any suggestions anyway. 

I've been talking about how strong Shenlong is as a master thanks to his ability to completely ignore all defensive tech since open beta. I'm disagreeing with your suggestions because your suggestions neither touch on the root of his problems nor do they actually address the fact that the only broken Monk model is Shenlong. You instead want to nerf something that isn't even all that strong to a laughable point and also want to nerf a keyword mechanic all because of one model.

[Irritated Walrus]

4 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

1/2/3 healing is weaker that the cure on the low River Monk considering the trigger  . And for a weaker action you must also spend the most important resource in the crew. And using a Master AP no less. 

 

A master can’t be a jack of all trades. Many masters can’t heal at all. He’s already got a trigger for every single suit he flips on his attacks.  

[SerZaka]

How many matches did you have against him?

[Irritated Walrus]

41 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

So that's literally what happened? The opposing player scored 3 points by the end of turn 4, got Shenlong down to 1 wd on turn 4, and then 2 low river monks were able to heal him up, meaning they were at most 13" away from him at the start of the turn? And going into the next turn the opposing play still had enough pressure to bring Shenlong back down to 1 health? So in this scenario where the Shenlong player is getting ABSOLUTELY stomped, the opposing player gets greedy on turn 4 going for the Shenlong kill without a way to ignore HtK instead of leaving Shenlong alone and killing the other models they would need to kill anyways that are both A) much easier to kill than shenlong is even without support and B) able to keep Shenlong alive?

This is the scenario that happened? I'm supposed to look at this scenario where a shenlong player is literally hanging on by the skin of their teeth and supposed to surmise that Chi is too strong of a mechanic? This is the argument you're making?

When you are sitting on enough resources to heal to full each turn you’re never really hanging on by the skin of your teeth. 

[Irritated Walrus]

1 minute ago, SerZaka said:

How many matches did you have against him?

Our meta of eight players has been playing 3e since the closed beta. Plenty of games have been played against him, and pretty much everyone other than the people who use him feel the same way. 

[santaclaws01]

8 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

When you are sitting on enough resources to heal to full each turn you’re never really hanging on by the skin of your teeth. 

When literally your entire crew is dead except for 3 models and the enemy crew is mostly alive and you have to spend your entire turn just keeping your master alive? That is exactly what I would describe that situation as. Especially when it hinges on your opponent ignoring victim stat models that only have Stealth to protect them while they're hoarding up Chi to be able to perform that burst healing later.

[SerZaka]

Talking of ShenLong in closed beta terms is not that relevant . His crew changed more that the Dreamer during the closed 

He passed through  Kamehameha High River Monks (they were hilarious) , Permanent Chi, +1/2/3 Chi Mechanic, Df 6 models and the battery-like Low River Monks 

[Irritated Walrus]

10 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

When literally your entire crew is dead except for 3 models and the enemy crew is mostly alive and you have to spend your entire turn just keeping your master alive? That is exactly what I would describe that situation as. Especially when it hinges on your opponent ignoring victim stat models that only have Stealth to protect them while they're hoarding up Chi to be able to perform that burst healing later.

You’re making a lot of assumptions about what was alive and what wasn’t for not being there. 
 

Again, I shouldn’t have criticized your toys in your own forum. Just know that the meta believes changes need to be made to your master. A simple forum search proves that. 

[santaclaws01]

6 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

You’re making a lot of assumptions about what was alive and what wasn’t for not being there. 

Oh, so you were just lying earlier when you said the situation you were describing of Shenlong being basically the only model alive and thus absolutely had to be killed since it was the last turn and the opponent already scored 3 points for reckoning wasn't actually a hypothetical, and in fact this didn't happen in the last few turns and thus there was plenty of time for the opponent to kill the low river monks before moving onto Shenlong.

Good to know.

 

6 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Again, I shouldn’t have criticized your toys in your own forum. Just know that the meta believes changes need to be made to your master.

So just going to ignore the fact that I've been one of those people, and explicitly stated so, because the only reason I could ever disagree with your ideas for nerfs is because I don't want a master in my secondary faction to be nerfed.

[Irritated Walrus]

Wow, calling people liars. I expect more from people in these forums. 

I never said he was the only model alive. Masters count as three models killed and many other models, not all, had been. Sinking AP into a Master makes sense late game in Reckoning so you are going after two targets instead of four.

Pretty sad. I hope whatever is bothering you works itself out for the best. 

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

 

...no it's not? Where is this coming from?

Its an Action for Shenlong, but Aspiring Students can use the Action's on Shen's currently equipped upgrade as Bonus Actions

[santaclaws01]

7 minutes ago, Irritated Walrus said:

I never said he was the only model alive. Masters count as three models killed and many other models, not all, had been. Sinking AP into a Master makes sense late game in Reckoning so you are going after two targets instead of four.

 

2 hours ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Why are you talking about hypotheticals when I'm responding to a specific situation? Your hypothetical can't even apply to the specific situation you posted, of a person already having scored 3 points from reckoning by turn 5, while also getting shenlong down to 1 health on both turns 4 and 5(from full on turn 5), and there are still 2 monks of low river alive to help heal shenlong up to full.

 

2 hours ago, Irritated Walrus said:

It isn’t hypothetical.

Well excuse me for taking you at your words then I guess.

[Irritated Walrus]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

 

 

Well excuse me for taking you at your words then I guess.

Not once did I mention the number of models left on the table or that started in the game. 
 

Again, I hope that whatever is bothering you sorts itself out. 

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Irritated Walrus said:

Not once did I mention the number of models left on the table or that started in the game. 
 

Again, I hope that whatever is bothering you sorts itself out. 

I asked you why you were applying a hypothetical(Shenlong is one of a few models left alive late game to kill to score last reckoning), to the situation of Shenlong being healed by Low River Monks and himself from 1 to full two turns in a row.

You replied that it wasn't a hypothetical.

There's only so many ways I can interpret that.

[Drowsheep]

As a TT player (who again doesn’t play much of Shenlong right now), I get that Shenlong is powerful.  His chi is hardly the issue though.

i know that his drunken style is a little wonky—and as such when I’ve played, I haven’t used it that frequently.  But I do think that the thing that needs to be addressed with him is that ability (either removing it or giving it some limited version of it).

From the games I’ve played with models that use chi (a few more than just my Shenlong games), I wouldn’t say the ability is broken in anyway.  It’s a solid ability that compares to a lot of the other abilities that other factions have.  There are definitely better abilities for keywords—there are also worse ones.

 

i think the ultimate issue with nerfing stuff if that once it’s nerfed it’s usually worse than whatever is currently in the meta; I’d rather look at masters across multiple factions that no one is playing and see what we can do to help those ones out and bring them into the meta.

 

[Irritated Walrus]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

I asked you why you were applying a hypothetical(Shenlong is one of a few models left alive late game to kill to score last reckoning), to the situation of Shenlong being healed by Low River Monks and himself from 1 to full two turns in a row.

You replied that it wasn't a hypothetical.

There's only so many ways I can interpret that.

So is “a few” three, four, six? You don’t know because it wasn’t specified. You’re making assumptions without evidence. 
 

Again, I hope what ever is bothering you personally sorts itself out. I’m not interested in seeing anyone take out their frustrations about other aspects of life on the internet. 
 

Have a good day. 

[Kadeton]

No more snark, personal attacks, or baiting, please. Discuss things civilly and respectfully, or not at all.

We're all here to try to make the game better, even if we disagree on the specifics of what should be done. Don't take proposed changes personally, and don't make them personal either.

[Zebo]

Having never faced a TT crew, but looking all the posts (and having faced the Brewmaster) I think Chi is not such a problem but the Drunken Kung Fu. Shenlong won the National without Monks, he does everything by himself, and really I think is really bad that Drunken Kung Fu affects damage flips. Changing that would make him less oppressive. 

Also think that Kitty Dumont drawing 4-6 cards per turn is insane, that trigger should be "enemy only"

[Necrokamo]

5 hours ago, Zebo said:

Having never faced a TT crew, but looking all the posts (and having faced the Brewmaster) I think Chi is not such a problem but the Drunken Kung Fu. Shenlong won the National without Monks, he does everything by himself, and really I think is really bad that Drunken Kung Fu affects damage flips. Changing that would make him less oppressive. 

Also think that Kitty Dumont drawing 4-6 cards per turn is insane, that trigger should be "enemy only"

Most of the problem would come from the rival giving him enough negatives to make his move.  I mention again that the problem is the player who does not know what he faces.  How does Kitty draw so many cards?  Does she uses Demeanor twice?

[Zebo]

Yes, and if her target has HtW (like Yasunori) she draws 3 cards per action.