Misery - Aura Grammar Loophole

[Drazulfel]

I've seen several discussions that indicate if an enemy triggers "Misery" in multiple friendly models (for example, Pandora and 2 Sorrows), then based on the rules of Aura, the enemy can only suffer damage from one of the friendly models, but can be moved by any or all. The justification for this line of thinking is the "change of game state" associated with the application of the damage is somehow different from the "change of game state" associated with the move.

The way that Misery is worded, I disagree. I believe that multiple friendly models can cause damage to an enemy model within their auras when Misery is triggered, and here is why...

Whether the model is damaged or moved has nothing to do with whether or not a model is affected by a change of game state. The key is in which model is affected by the change.

The rule for auras states "Auras are not cumulative. If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e.: if the Aura would change its game state in some way) then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice."

The first example is the Hold 'Em ability, which reads: "After an enemy model within Aura 6 Cheats Fate, it suffers 1 damage after resolving the current Action or Ability." The key wording is "it suffers." In other words, the target of the Hold 'Em ability is affected by a change in game state. "It" suffers. Therefore, the target model can only be affected by one instance of a Hold 'Em aura per activation, even if it is within multiple instances of that aura.

The second example is the Scamper ability, which reads: "After an enemy model within Aura 6 Cheats Fate, this model may Push up to 2" in any direction after resolving the current Action or Ability." The key wording is "this model." In other words, the source of the Scamper ability is affected by a change in game state. "This model" may Push. Therefore, the target model can be Pushed multiple times as a result of being within multiple instances of the Scamper aura, because it is passively being Pushed by the change affected upon multiple source models.

Now, let's look at the wording of Misery: "After an enemy model within Aura 6 gains Stunned or a Condition listed in this model's Opportunist Ability, this model may either move it up to 2" or have it suffer 1 damage."

Notice the difference in the wording of Misery, which says of the source model, "this model may... have it suffer," versus Hold 'Em, which says of the target model, "it suffers." 

In the case of Misery, it is the source model of the Misery ability that is affected by a change of game state when it actively causes the target model to suffer damage ("have it suffer"). The target model passively receives damage from the source of the Misery ability, the same way the target model is Pushed by the source of the Scamper ability. For that matter, it is "this model" that either moves the target or has it suffer damage when the Misery aura is triggered. The affected model for both choices is "this model." With either choice, it is the source model ("this model") that is affected by a change in game state.

Therefore, if an enemy model triggers Misery from multiple friendly models, the friendly player can inflict any combination of damage points or moves on that enemy model based on the number of triggered Misery auras.

Am I way off base in over-dissecting this, or ... knowing how important the wording of a rule is ... is this level of interpretation what is expected?

 

 

 

[Paddywhack]

9 minutes ago, Drazulfel said:

The second example is the Scamper ability, which reads: "After an enemy model within Aura 6 Cheats Fate, this model may Push up to 2" in any direction after resolving the current Action or Ability." The key wording is "this model." In other words, the source of the Scamper ability is affected by a change in game state. "This model" may Push. Therefore, the target model can be Pushed multiple times as a result of being within multiple instances of the Scamper aura, because it is passively being Pushed by the change affected upon multiple source models.

This sounds like you think the enemy model is pushed by Scamper. There is no 'target' model in Scamper and the target doesn't push at all. An enemy model within 6 of  Bushwacker cheats fate - the BW uses Scamper and gets to push 2". Multiple BW could do this off of one enemy model cheating fate as each is only affected once by the aura. 

Wyrd doesn't always use exactly the same language across the board. Sometimes it's important subtle differences, sometimes it's just different words to mean the same thing. I think the important thing with the aura rules is to go model by model. Is it affected by one or more of the same named aura? Yes - apply the effects of the aura once and move on to the next model. 

[Drazulfel]

11 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

This sounds like you think the enemy model is pushed by Scamper. There is no 'target' model in Scamper and the target doesn't push at all. An enemy model within 6 of  Bushwacker cheats fate - the BW uses Scamper and gets to push 2". Multiple BW could do this off of one enemy model cheating fate as each is only affected once by the aura. 

Good catch. I missed that. I'm not sure it changes the logic... I'll have to re-read & re-think.

[Adran]

I disagree. The difference you talk about  is about the model that is making the choice. The model that is being affected is the one suffering the change in game state, not the model making the choice.  Pandora is not suffering a change in game state, but she is the one that choices if its damage or a push, and the direction of the push. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

There's also the common sense problem (if you can apply multiple miseries, a single bonus action can do 5+ damage that can't be reduced...)

Unlikely this is the intended functionality.

[Nagi21]

28 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

There's also the common sense problem (if you can apply multiple miseries, a single bonus action can do 5+ damage that can't be reduced...)

Unlikely this is the intended functionality.

I mean by the same token if I do an AOE with pandora and hit 5 models, RAW I only get one misery proc... which sounds just as absurd.

[Maniacal_cackle]

12 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean by the same token if I do an AOE with pandora and hit 5 models, RAW I only get one misery proc... which sounds just as absurd.

I've never had a situation where I don't have enough misery procs for Pandora's bonus action (I have run out of procs during an activation, but never during a single action).

Although yes it feels strange xD

[Nagi21]

10 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I've never had a situation where I don't have enough misery procs for Pandora's bonus action (I have run out of procs during an activation, but never during a single action).

Although yes it feels strange xD

I mean... misery procs are expensive lol...

Misery is one of the things I think really needs to be buffed in the (one day) errata.  It's nice but it's just not very good...

[Ogid]

10 hours ago, Drazulfel said:

"Auras are not cumulative. If a model would be affected by multiple Auras of the same name (i.e.: if the Aura would change its game state in some way) then it is only affected by one such Aura of its controller’s choice."

That is the answer. If an aura is doing something to a model (in this case damage or a push), that model is being affected; which prevents any other aura with the same name to affect it at the same time.

The wording of Misery is a bit convoluted because that ability is specifing some things needed to the ability to work as intended:

• It's a once per activation aura. If the model wouldn't be able to choose ("may") when it activates, the first time a condition happens, all Misery auras that may react to that condition will try to resolve and get disabled even if they cannot affect the model.
• The aura can cause 2 effects ("Either... or ....") and the model with the aura is the one making the choice of what effect happens.

2 hours ago, Nagi21 said:

I mean by the same token if I do an AOE with pandora and hit 5 models, RAW I only get one misery proc... which sounds just as absurd.

Mind you may use 1 Misery per model affected; if there are a few other woes in range, several models may get an extra point of damage.

[Nagi21]

1 minute ago, Ogid said:

Mind you may use 1 Misery per model affected; if there are a few other woes in range, several models may get an extra point of damage.

Right but that requires one model per aura which is... poor cost for effect.  It also requires that you select the target when it gains a condition not after the end of an action, meaning that you don't actually know what's going to be hit before you have to decide which aura it procs with AOE effects... which is again bad.  This could be mitigated with a fully misery bubble spam crew, but then we get into the fact that the low cost woes are relatively poor models, particularly for suitability, which is another can of worms.

[Ogid]

35 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

Right but that requires one model per aura which is... poor cost for effect.

1 damage isn't impressive, but it's basically free damage; those models don't have to expend anything to get it. I think Misery is fine as it is, letting it stack can get ridiculous fast and upgrading it to 2 damage is also too much... If woes needed help some defensive buffs could help them, but I wouldn't touch Misery... maybe the range could get adjusted, but definitely not the damage

35 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

It also requires that you select the target when it gains a condition not after the end of an action, meaning that you don't actually know what's going to be hit before you have to decide which aura it procs with AOE effects... which is again bad.

I'm not sure if I'm getting you here... Misery triggers when the model gain the condition (so after he fails the TN/defense); you don't have to commit the aura before the models flips.

For example, Pandora bonus action is going to affect 5 models (none of which is stunned) with only 2 Mysery auras in range; you may wait to see if a model fails the TN before triggering an aura:

• First flip, if fails but the model cheats = No stunned, so no chance to trigger Misery
• Second flip, it fails, no cheating = A model in range may trigger the aura.
• Third flip, it succeed = No chance to trigger Misery
• Fourth flip, it fails, no cheating = The other model in range may trigger the aura.
• Fifth flip, it fails, no cheating = A Misery aura could trigger, but both auras have being used at this point.

[theamazingmrg]

A model can only be affected by one Aura of a particular name once per Activation, regardless of how many copies of that Aura it is in range of (assuming the Aura doesn't have a numeric modifier).

 

So if three Woes with Misery (Models A, B, and C) are in range of three enemy models (Models D, E, F) with their Misery Auras and all three enemy models take Stunned simultaneously then each can only be affected by a single Misery, but all three models could be affected (Model A uses Misery on Model D, Model B uses Misery on Model E, Model C uses Misery on Model F).  Each model is only using/affected by Misery once per Activation and nothing stacks.

[Nagi21]

26 minutes ago, Ogid said:

1 damage isn't impressive, but it's basically free damage; those models don't have to expend anything to get it. I think Misery is fine as it is, letting it stack can get ridiculous fast and upgrading it to 2 damage is also too much... If woes needed help some defensive buffs could help them, but I wouldn't touch Misery... maybe the range could get adjusted, but definitely not the damage

I'm not sure if I'm getting you here... Misery triggers when the model gain the condition (so after he fails the TN/defense); you don't have to commit the aura before the models flips.

I would agree on either defensive changes to the 6ss and lower woes, or a buff to misery.  I don't think 2 damage is that insane if nothing else is changed... a significant range increase (more than 8" but less than 12") on the aura would also help since it would allow the weaker woes to not have to position so aggressively and make the bubble slightly more viable. Changing removing the once per activation restriction could work as well (because at that point it's just 1 point of damage per different condition, which isn't the easiest thing to do without significant AP investment.

As far as the second part of that, what I mean is let's say you hit three models with Pandora's AOE, like a totem, a low cost model, and a master.  Your enemy decides to flip for the totem first and fails, and gains the condition.  Since misery is once per activation you have to decide whether to use misery on a weak model, or not use misery and then hope your opponent doesn't pass the other two afterwards since misery is when the condition is gained not when the action ends.  Misery just has so many unnecessary restrictions that keep it from being a decent ability like some crews have (hell have we mentioned flicker at all lol).

 

24 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

A model can only be affected by one Aura of a particular name once per Activation, regardless of how many copies of that Aura it is in range of (assuming the Aura doesn't have a numeric modifier).

This raises an interesting point, because if Misery(Stunned) and Misery(Any Condition) are in range of one model, by this logic they could stack because they have different modifiers.

[theamazingmrg]

15 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

This raises an interesting point, because if Misery(Stunned) and Misery(Any Condition) are in range of one model, by this logic they could stack because they have different modifiers.

I just used Stunned to illustrate my point.  Misery is never written as Misery (Stunned) or Misery (Other Condition).  It is always just Misery and the text differentiates what Conditions it triggers off.  Therefore no more than one Misery can ever affect a single model in a given activation, regardless of the Conditions they are triggering off.

[Nagi21]

1 minute ago, theamazingmrg said:

I just used Stunned to illustrate my point.  Misery is never written as Misery (Stunned) or Misery (Other Condition).  It is always just Misery and the text differentiates what Conditions it triggers off.  Therefore no more than one Misery can ever affect a single model in a given activation, regardless of the Conditions they are triggering off.

No... Misery is definitely written as Misery (whatever condition) - Effect text

[theamazingmrg]

17 minutes ago, Nagi21 said:

No... Misery is definitely written as Misery (whatever condition) - Effect text

No, it isn't.

 

 

[Nagi21]

Just now, theamazingmrg said:

No, it isn't.

 

 

Ah well close enough lol.  I stand by the statement that Misery still needs a buff.