Von Schtook and co: discussion thread.

[Maniacal_cackle]

We've got a fantastic index of discussion threads, but our good ol' Albus Von Schtook hasn't got anything yet. I've been thinking of picking him up, so have been thinking about this crew a bit. Here's my initial thoughts.

The good

Oohhhhh boy, this crew is sweet.

Card control

The crew's mechanic, Studied Opponent, allows them to draw a card whenever they match suits. By default about 25% of duels should be triggering this, but that can be augmented by cheating on either side. You only need one per activation as well. Seems like it'll be incredibly hard to master this, but will be critical to the crew.

The crew is extremely trigger focused as well, with tons of shenanigans stapled to triggers rather than being built into the ability. Planning triggers several activations in advance will be even more useful than it is for other crews.

The Valedictorian seems like a critical component of this. With the ability to exchange 2 cards with cards in the discard pile per turn, she gives amazing precision for getting the cards you need. She's first up on my list of models to try out past the core box.

Counterpicking

Von Schtook's crew seems to be a soft counter to loads of other crews.

Schtook himself shuts down all upgrade cards near him. Sorry Shenlong, Schtook hasn't got time for your shit today.

Stunned is very prevalent in this crew, so it will be a good counter to anything that is trigger reliant (or to a lesser degree, bonus reliant). This is especially powerful as Schtook can reduce the damage he receives any time a trigger isn't declared in the attack. Stunned is the key engine for this. The stun effects are also tied to a key trigger for each model (for example, the Valedictorian has 'on your heels' to place into contact with an enemy), so you're not going to feel bad handing out several stuns per turn.

Anna Lovelace shuts down place effects nearby, as well as enemies targeting each other (with heals, for instance). Many models in the crew can ignore armor and have some tech against a few other abilities as well.

Students of sinew are able to command undead!!! I'm expecting many mirror matches of Schtook vs. Schtook once the meta develops, since any crew with undead in it will be vulnerable to being commanded. While not as strong as Zoraida's obey, undead-heavy crews are going to be weeping against a Sinew or two (or three!).

Minions

The minions in general are quite strong (with costs of 7, 7, and 8 for the students).

But that's not to say the crew lacks scheme runners. Its lower cost minions have either leap or by your side, two of the best movement abilities in the game IMO.

The undergraduates, though weaker at counter scheming than crooligans, make up for it by packing a hell of a wallop - they get a free attack after using by your side, with a 2/3/5 damage track. Definitely something that is going to destroy a few enemy model's before opponents learn to respect undergraduate threat range. They also have lead the way, helping the rest of the crew with mobility (a critical ability in this crew I suspect). That said, at 2 extra stones apiece, you'd expect them to be much better than crooligans. I can't imagine we'll see 3 undergraduates on the table very often.

Each minion has highly specialised abilities, so has strong counterpicking potential. The crew will probably be most effective when the whole crew is available for hiring (sorry wallets, I suspect this is not a budget crew... Although I'm going to try it budget anyway).

Tough as nails

The crew is filled with high health models, and most have some sort of defensive tech (hard to wound, armor, defensive triggers, etc). And since the defensive tech is so varied, it is hard for an opponent to pick one counterpick that will take them all down.

The Bad

I'm not sure yet! I'm still stoked about the crew. However, a few things stand out.

Their damage is not fantastic. It's not terrible, but their baseline damage is not that great.

They are extremely reliant on triggers/card shenanigans. They may really struggle against enemies who can control their cards (such as Zoraida cycling hands, Jack Daw discarding their hand, or Nephilim preventing cheating).

Their movement is synergy based. They have some excellent reach, but if you can shut off their movement combos, they're basically going to be oozing across the table. They haven't got a non-minion like Archie that can jump all over the table. By extension, 'by your side' is much weaker in this crew, since it takes more work to set up teleports.

What are your thoughts? I'm curious to hear from anyone, although bonus points to people who have played the crew!

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, and let's not forget the Academic Zeal upgrade. Being able to kill enemy models and convert them to Transmortis minions is crazy!

It is such good flavour and a very strong ability. With 5 different minions to choose from (with costs 5-8), it should be possible to set up some good summons. The downside is the kill has to come from the model with the upgrade, so the summon is telegraphed far in advance.

I suspect I'll use the Academic Zeal upgrades for the other bonuses initially, and then when opportunities arise I'll use them for a summon.

[dannydb]

I've just got my vonsctook crew myself and will be looking to get some games in with it post UK nationals. 

 

I do think it's main issue might be a relence an valedictorian to bys off and I think it's a lot less of a scheme running thing and more of a killy thing with vonsctook compared to molly (necropunks seem better schemsers than undgrads in some regards) 

 

Listing to the third floor wars podcast has given me a lot tips in playing vonsctook and I can completely see where Jamie was coming from regarding vonsctook wants to be playing schemes based around opponents locations so things like harness, search, detonate and dig seem much better choices than say a breakthrough or a power ritual (not to say necro punks can't do that) 

 

It be interesting to see where vonsctook fits in vs yan lo in terms of the more killy schemes and I can see yanlo doing the more location based ones (breakthrough, power ritual etc) while vonsctook does the more central ones 

[dannydb]

I guess my question seems to be is where does leave something like Jack? 

 

Thry seems to be wanting to both play the more killy focused strategy with schemes marker based schemes, so when would you take one over the other? Jack feels more anti schemy in that regard between dead outlaws and crooked men, where as vonsctook seems more about dropping a potential tone of them

[Maniacal_cackle]

@dannydb, that's a great point about potential schemes. That said, the totem can put schemes down at range, several models can convert corpse markers to scheme markers (so for instance, on Reckoning you're probably going to be able to get Search the Ruins). 

I agree by your side is going to be pretty limited, but at the same time, you could push Valedictorian (or any other non-minion) 12 inches before it even activates if you're really wanting to go after something in particular.

Due to the auras, I think they're likely good at zone control schemes but maybe worse than Yan Lo (claim jump, outflank) as well as getting near the enemy (hold up their forces, etc). Breakthrough does seem bad! And dig their graves they're good at countering (since they can eat corpse markers).

Strategies wise, I would imagine they can handle most of them. Plant explosives should be doable because by your side makes it trivial as soon as one non-minion crosses the centreline. Corrupted idols is going to be super tricky though - they may not be able to maneuver to go grab idols in awkward locations. They may have to really abuse the valedictorian's ability as well as general card draw to ensure they're able to cheat for initiative with the suits they need.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, also, Von Schtook strikes me as an extremely matchup based master. I imagine a lot of the time you select him because you're worried about a particular matchup (one thing that appeals to me about him as a Molly player is I want to try him out if my opponent declares Ten Thunders).

[dannydb]

I do think vonsctook could do explosives relitivly well vs TTs. Idols seems to be potentially his worst strategy and as said previously it feels like for reckoning/turf war Jack, Yan lo and vonsctook could all potentially do them and I guess without more testing in not sure what's thr best situation for each of them

[Maniacal_cackle]

I feel like Reckoning in particular is scheme dependent. Most masters seem to be able to do it for at least some scheme pools.

[MajorUndead]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@dannydb, that's a great point about potential schemes. That said, the totem can put schemes down at range, several models can convert corpse markers to scheme markers (so for instance, on Reckoning you're probably going to be able to get Search the Ruins).

There's also Von Schtook's Recruitment Drive ability that let him drop a scheme marker each time a Transmortis model kills an ennemy model.

 

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The undergraduates, though weaker at counter scheming than crooligans, make up for it by packing a hell of a wallop - they get a free attack after using by your side,

Since the free attack is after place effects, it also works on the summon. Meaning you could summon one, have the free attack from the summon, then when activating it, you can use by your side and get another free attack.

Also I think dead rider can be a good help with the crew. Ride with me allows more movement shenanigans (and since it's a place it can also give you a free attack on Undergraduates 😛 )

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, MajorUndead said:

There's also Von Schtook's Recruitment Drive ability that let him drop a scheme marker each time a Transmortis model kills an ennemy model.

Wowza! I read this too fast and thought it was just when he killed stuff. Super good for Dig Their Graves (of course, every ressers crew can do Dig Their Graves with ease 😜 ). But useful for loads of things.

2 minutes ago, MajorUndead said:

Since the free attack is after place effects, it also works on the summon. Meaning you could summon one, have the free attack from the summon, then when activating it, you can use by your side and get another free attack.

Neat trick!

2 minutes ago, MajorUndead said:

Also I think dead rider can be a good help with the crew. Ride with me allows more movement shenanigans (and since it's a place it can also give you a free attack on Undergraduates 😛 )

Yeah, Dead Rider was occurring to me as well.  Seems especially good for ferrying Anna Lovelace if you need her auras somewhere, and then of course your undergraduates can hop right over. But the undergraduate trick hadn't occurred. That's quite good!

[McCabe]

My most played resser to date.

Some points. 

You spoke of soft countering but he hard counters things to. Crews that mass stack conditions get destroyed by admin review. So crews like Mcmourning and Kaeris who stack poison or burning for their crew get stripped and blown off the table with 1 AP. 

I think BYS is underestimated in this discussion. Undergrads are very strong and so is Anna and the Valedictorian- so BYS plays a huge role in the crew strength when you're always playing 4 BYS ports. 

As to speed- BYS, lead the way, fast, move along, flight and leaping- the crew is actually very fast when everything is considered together.  

Crew building lead into another point- people over estimate how much stunned is in the crew. IMO- your core crew is Anna, Val, couple undergrads and often a punk or 2. The other students are fantastic summons and tech pieces but aren't usually cutting it as core pieces beyond one of them. 

Damage output is also underestimated. Injured is really easy to put out, card draw is massive and puncture is frequent. And AP efficiency is prevelant- made to kill, flurry, fast. well as Anna being randomly 3/5/6? Min damage tracks are deceptive at indicating output- our moderates are great and we hit our moderates easily. 

We scheme super well too. So incidentally with killing! And necro punk are just excellent.  

And finally -with mobility, survivability, condition removal, card manipulation, scheming and AP efficiency- Schtook and his crew aren't situation/match up dependant. Infact they're nearly a perfect example of an all round crew you could easily solo at a competitive level. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Thanks for the insights, good to hear from someone who knows the crew! @McCabe

As I said, I think By Your Side is one of the best scheming abilities in the game. I don't underestimate it. BUT I'll be surprised if they are as good at maneuvering around the table as Forgotten, which is the comparison I was making.

The mobility is awesome but synergy based, right? Like the Valedictorian cannot zip off by herself, she needs support? (Compared to Archie who gladly zips off 18" a turn solo). She seems incredibly powerful though.

So my overall impression is that each model needs at least some allies nearby?

Their damage seems high indeed, but their base damage seems only medium? For instance, if your whole crew was stunned, you'd feel the drop in damage.

As for being matchup dependent, I was thinking there'll be plenty of times when Von Schtook is the best option solely based on matchup. Is that the case? But I imagine he can handle any situation with his wide variety of in keyword stuff.

Good point about the limited nature of stunning!

[McCabe]

As to Val taking off thats exactly what she does nearly every turn 1 for me she kills a model. 1 to 2 lead the ways, fast, focused, speed 6 from totem, so say shes pushed 8 inches- she can walk charge 13 inch and attack 3 times. That's 21 inch from deployment.  And she's not alone- that'll usually be late turn 1, allow a summon and her undergrad posse follows in turn 2. It never fail- usually best to pick off a flanking piece though so she doesn't get dog piled

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh! What do you consider to be highest priority past the core box?

I'm thinking I want the core box + valedictorian to start?

[dannydb]

you prob want his keyword ideally 

 

out of keyword i could see some healing potentially 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah, as a summoner I figure I'll have to eventually get the whole keyword xD But going to try it budget first.

[SoulGambit]

His crew box + the old transmortis scenario box will give at least one of everything, iirc.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Thanks! It seems to be sold out everywhere though.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@SoulGambit, would this box do?

[Paddywhack]

22 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Students of sinew are able to command undead!!! I'm expecting many mirror matches of Schtook vs. Schtook once the meta develops, since any crew with undead in it will be vulnerable to being commanded. While not as strong as Zoraida's obey, undead-heavy crews are going to be weeping against a Sinew or two (or three!).

It's hard to get off, but situationally useful for unexpected Interacts and other things. It's only a 6 Crows, but it competes for Von Schtook's need for Crows. It was pointed out to me that their Bonus is a diamond in the rough. I haven't yet had a model declare a Charge within 6" of him. But for the low price of a 4 Rams you can get a free attack off the Trigger.  The low Rams aren't in much demand either. This gives them a pseudo Flurry.

Focus - This crew can get a lot of Focus. I've had over a dozen Focus scattered across the table by turn 2 easy. Focus is what is going to really make them hit that moderate damage. 

Stunned - I feel bad about how much Stunned this crew hands out. I feel a bit dirty playing them honestly. Stunned is such a hard shut down for a lot of models and pretty much everyone in this crew can hand it out as a Bonus. Still, it feels good to shut down some of the nasty models out there. 

Scrap Markers - crews that use scrap (Mei Feng really) can be hurt a lot by Von Schtook's crew.  He, Anna, Valedictorian, and the Undergrads can all eat and or turn them into Scheme Markers. It can be really brutal for Mei Feng to lose her best Rail Walk target and have it turned into a Scheme instead. Yes, they can do this to Corpse too, but I find it really hurts Scrap users.

Out of keyword:: Toshiro - decent OOK hire. Supports the minion heavy crew handing out more Focus, triggers for extra attacks, extra movement, healing, and that extra + to melee attacks. He can't use anything form Von Schtook, but that's OK. It lets him focus on a smaller number of Transmortis models so you aren't spread out as thinly. He is expensive, but worth looking at. Any OOK model that brings an Upgrade in Hiring can still be given Fast by VonSchtook. Making a Rogue Necro Fast can be brutal (but very expensive). Still, its one way to make OOK models have some synergy with Von Schtook.

Conditions - Its been said before, but VonSchtook is a hard counter for Condition heavy crews. Yes, he can remove Conditions from friendly models, but where he really shines is removing Conditions from Enemy models and doing damage with True Disappointment. It has no cap to the amount of damage it can do! McMourning running around with 7 Poison - remove it and do 7 damage. Ouch!

My only gripe, and this may change with new models, is that I feel like the crew is the same every game. This is true for a lot of Keywords to some extent, but it really hits me with Transmortis. A couple undergrads, a couple students, Valedictorian and/or Anna and that's it. I might change the type of Student I take and occasionally throw in an OOK, but that's about it. I'm afraid I'm going to get bored quickly.

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Paddywhack why is Von Schtook so crow hungry? All his crows are built in except his main attack, where it is a situational ability I would have assumed?

[thewrathchilde]

30 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Paddywhack why is Von Schtook so crow hungry? All his crows are built in except his main attack, where it is a situational ability I would have assumed?

he also NEEDS it for Peer Review as this if how he hands out Academic Zeal upgrades to his models so they can summon. Other models in the crew compete for Crows as well- Undergraduates need them (not as much) for their Severe Injury Trigger, some of the Students have the same trigger as well, plus multiple have Crow triggers on Lecture nots. 

Depending on what else you are playing that is Versatile or Out of Keyword (OOK) a lot of the other Resser models have Crow triggers also. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 minutes ago, thewrathchilde said:

he also NEEDS it for Peer Review as this if how he hands out Academic Zeal upgrades to his models so they can summon. Other models in the crew compete for Crows as well- Undergraduates need them (not as much) for their Severe Injury Trigger, some of the Students have the same trigger as well, plus multiple have Crow triggers on Lecture nots. 

Depending on what else you are playing that is Versatile or Out of Keyword (OOK) a lot of the other Resser models have Crow triggers also. 

Ah, I missed it on the target number.  Makes complete sense now.

[thewrathchilde]

17 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh! What do you consider to be highest priority past the core box?

I'm thinking I want the core box + valedictorian to start?

1. Core Box (Mandatory)

2. University of Transmortis/Valley Girl/or however they repackage it (Mandatory)

3. Necropunks

4. Carrion Emissary & Mindless Zombie (Anna needs this anyway)

5. Bone Piles

17 hours ago, McCabe said:

You spoke of soft countering but he hard counters things to. Crews that mass stack conditions get destroyed by admin review. So crews like Mcmourning and Kaeris who stack poison or burning for their crew get stripped and blown off the table with 1 AP. 

I agree. I have been playing a lot of Albus lately and used him 2 of 3 rounds in a one day event (3 Rounds, 14 Players) I won on Saturday. He is great for neutralizing crews that hand out conditions and is probably the most efficient model in the game at dealing with multiple conditions on models. One of the crews I played against was handing out a lot of Staggered and Burning and for 1 AP Albus could eliminate both, heal 1 points and hand out fast. Absolutely amazing efficiency and return on his action. His crew (much like Pandora in NB) is a great counter to crews that rely on a lot of triggers to shut down those as well. 

17 hours ago, McCabe said:

I think BYS is underestimated in this discussion. Undergrads are very strong and so is Anna and the Valedictorian- so BYS plays a huge role in the crew strength when you're always playing 4 BYS ports. 

Absolutely. I always get mileage out of them. A lot of it is pool dependent and I don't usually run more than 1 in my base list (so I have room to summon) unless it's a game of Plant Explosives, but they always perform well and are great in pretty much any pool. 

17 hours ago, McCabe said:

As to speed- BYS, lead the way, fast, move along, flight and leaping- the crew is actually very fast when everything is considered together.  

Agree completely. The crew is deceptively fast and can rapidly redeploy from one area to another without compromising it's hitting power so you can react and neutralize fairly easily.

 

[thewrathchilde]

I have been playing a lot of Albus lately. I prefer him as an option in Turf, Plant, and Reckoning. He has game in Idols as well but I just generally prefer one of our other choices (usually Kirai) in that strategy.

Like with Molly, I have some differences with @Flippin' Wyrd Jamie on a few minor things in the crew but generally agree with him overall on how the crew functions. The main differences are based on slight differences in our play styles and metas which drive us to slightly different choices in crew selection and game approach. Typically I go more elite in my overall crew selection and rely more on summoning with Albus for the numbers and as a result don't take as many Undergraduates in my list in order to afford the more expensive models I want and have them available for summons. Similarly I rarely start with more than one (if that) Student in my main list and when I do it is purpose selected to provide a required capability necessary to enable my crew for the pool or neutralize a strength or defense in the opponents crew.  

Similarly we diverge in our selection of Versatile models in the Albus crew as well and I rarely take the Bone Pile (who is amazing) unless it is purpose selected to play against a condition driven crew (Kaeris, McMourning, Raspy(maybe), Brewie) to provide me more tools that can ignore the other crews main schtick without having to use Albus's AP just to clear a bunch of conditions- though he does that really well and I often use the ability. Instead, my number one versatile choice with Albus is usually the Emissary.

A "typical" Albus list for me in Turf looks something like:

Albus w/Whisper (2), Assistant (0), Anna (10), Valley Girl w/GST (11), Emissary (10), Undergraduate (6), Necropunk (5) + 6 Stones

If I need a little more punch I will go with a second Undergraduate instead of the Necropunk. In something like Plant I will drop the Emissary in favor of Archie or Manos and start with 2 x Undergraduates in the list instead of the Necropunk. 

 

Often overlooked in other Albus builds  have seen the Emissary provides tons of utility to the crew. He provides a Min. 3 source of damage. Provides more blasts and another source of Injured (huge), even further speeds up the crew, and provides a way to turn off healing and soul stone usage. The min 3 damage is pretty self explanatory. His ability to hand out injured in conjunction with Albus handing out Injured as well, really increasing the efficiency and resource usage of the crew. Having this on multiple models that both do blast damage as well is incredible for making the rest of your crew so much more effective.

The anti-healing and soul stone prevention is a massive utility for the crew as well. Being able to turn off stones really helps enable the crew to more easily deal with glass cannons like the Viks that alpha in and count on their stones to keep them alive. It also makes things with healing tricks and abilities (Demise: Eternal for example- looking at you Midnight Stalker and Serena Bowman) a lot more easy to take out as well as it prevents the healing from abilities like that as well. 

The speed piece is a little more situational but always comes into play first turn. Since most of the crew (minus Anna, Albus, and the Assistant) are Undead models between him and the Assistant your models that are in both auras (different names, both +1, so they stack) are getting +2 movement for their entire activation so that really extends the threat range of Valley Girl and speeds up the rest of the crew as well. Lastly, there is still a lot of play in M3E for his bonus action. Though destructible terrain isn't a good as non for blocking lanes, etc. It can still stall movement and interfere with the opponent or protect a key model of yours (or marker) when needed. The other awesome thing about it is the Mindless Zombie.....zombies are more utility than previously and can be really useful for blocking, that last point of damage, assisting to get rid of certain conditions from key models without needing Albus's AP, getting rid of destructible terrain, etc. They are still good roadblocks to that can tie down an opponents model and force them to waste AP. Lastly they are great candidates for Anna to detonate for potentially some additional damage, a free card draw, and they still drop a corpse so one of your other models can study it as well in order to get a marker somewhere needed. This is amazing as it can let you group markers closer together than you could using Interacts to drop a scheme marker.

 

Usually I start by loading Anna up with Academic Zeal, make Valley Girl Fast, push everyone in keyword and hand out focus, and then walk with Albus. If he doesn't need to walk then he will hand out fast to Anna as well but usually he needs to walk to get in position to affect he rest of the game from a quarterback position. In laster turns he will condition clear and hand out Fast when needed and keep Anna or the Valley Girl stocked up with Academic Zeal so they are turning out New Students for the first few turns, and primarily he transitions to a blaster though he still occasionally hands out focus just because of the efficiency of doing it when he can hit multiple models and effectively multiply the affects of the AP.

Valley Girl is the scalpel to slice out those vulnerable pieces and with car draw and stones can do an amazing amount of work every turn. With armor and the GST upgrade and stones and the minimal healing she can get from Albus she is surprisingly resilient. I do strike hard and fast with her but usually keep her to the edges to minimize what the opponent car react with also giving her more flexibility with how she can use shove aside and bounce back and forth between targets between this and Flurry.

Anna and the Emissary are my line backers and can be pretty resilient as well since they are both Def 6, especially if you can keep them in cover/concealment since they can blast pretty well from range. As described above they are the 1-2 punch from shooting and can also serve as finishers (especially when Anna is positioned for recruitment of New Students). 

The Undergraduates and Necropunks are utility........I shouldn't need to explain their roles. My summons are also usually these unless there is a specific capability I need from one of the other students (mobility and more scheming or heals from Viscera, anti-armor from Steel, etc).

 

Albus has not replaced my other masters as my go to  auto choice for any of these pools and strategies but he is another way of accomplishing them which provides a great option depending on the match. For example, in the tournament I played last weekend in Round 2 I was facing a Basse/Sonnia list in Turf War and took Albus over Seamus for the condition removal, incidental scheme markers, and some other tools in the crew. In Round 3 I took Albus over Molly in Plant (Corner) as he gave me amore resilient crew able to compete well in a less marker based scheme pool while still effectively being able to Plant for the strategy. 

 

.02, YMMV