Blackblood timing

[Tsuki]

Ok we’re playing tonight and came across this weird timing thing with blackblood and Maddog’s cigar attack with the ahh my eye trigger.  Blackblood reads “after this model suffers damage from an action or trigger every model within pulse 1 suffers 1 damage...” and Maddog’s Burning cigar attack action gives the target burning 1 and injured 2 but deals no damage except on the Ahh my eye trigger which reads “when resolving target suffers +1 damage and is pushed up to 3 inches away..." 

Does blackblood trigger in this scenario before or after the push, because both occur from the same instance? We ruled damage then blackblood then push because under “Simultaneous effects #3 it says effects are resolved in the order they appear on the card and Ahh my eye states damage first and push 2nd and blackblood happens after the damage. 

 

@ZyeFolkvar

[Adran]

Because the order on the trigger is "Deal damage and then push" you will fully resolve the damage section before the push occurs. (step 5 apply results page 23)

 

Black blood is an after a model is damaged effect, so it will occur during the damage timing. (Step 5 in the table on page 34)

 

So you will do the black blood damage before you do the push.

[SteampunkCake]

Black Blood would be after resolving so after the whole action has been resolved.
So Mad Dog hits with the burning cigar and gets the trigger.
The trigger does a point of damage and pushes the nephilim 3" away.
Then Black Blood activates.

[Ogid]

Yeah, malifaux models are cool; but they aren't as cool as some manga characters who may be 100 fts away before his enemy's body realize it has been cut in half. That model get his share of BB before moving

[Mycellanious]

Follow up, if an action damages a model with black blood, then a trigger does a separate source of damage (smoulder for example), black blood would proc twice correct? 

[Adran]

14 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Follow up, if an action damages a model with black blood, then a trigger does a separate source of damage (smoulder for example), black blood would proc twice correct? 

Yes if each bit of damage is separate then each bit will cause black blood

[Maniacal_cackle]

I disagree ever so slightly with Adran. I think that resolving black blood at step five applies a new damage effect to the attacking model, but you finish resolving the current effects. So it'd be:

* resolving trigger

* resolve black blood, generates new damage on the attacking model, but have to finish resolving other effects.

* other effects from initial damage

* resolve the move.

* apply the black blood damage.

This distinction mainly matters because black blood may kill the attacking model. If it does, the Black Blood model may get to heal based on being within 6" of Nekima. This move would occur before your attacking model dies IMO, so may move the black model out of (or into) Nekima's range.

[santaclaws01]

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I disagree ever so slightly with Adran. I think that resolving black blood at step five applies a new damage effect to the attacking model, but you finish resolving the current effects. So it'd be:

* resolving trigger

* resolve black blood, generates new damage on the attacking model, but have to finish resolving other effects.

* other effects from initial damage

* resolve the move.

* apply the black blood damage.

This distinction mainly matters because black blood may kill the attacking model. If it does, the Black Blood model may get to heal based on being within 6" of Nekima. This move would occur before your attacking model dies IMO, so may move the black model out of (or into) Nekima's range.

Still on the "game is telling me to resolve this effect now, so I'll resolve it later" train?

[Maniacal_cackle]

@santaclaws01, what can I say, I'm just not persuaded the final iteration of the rules intends for resolving damage that happens at time B before damage that happens at previous time A.

For the original poster, I won't rehash all the arguments here. It has been discussed several times on this forum, you can dig up old threads!

[LeperColony]

I do think that generally speaking the game would benefit from more details on Ability timing specifically, and probably a more elaborate "stack-like" system similar to TCGs.

In this particular case, I believe the model will suffer black blood damage.

"After this model suffers damage..." is a timing indicator.  So it happens after the prerequisite event.  But it happens before subsequent effects of the same ability.  It essentially "cuts in."

Because you resolve effects "in the order presented on the card," you need to fully resolve the damage and any other consequences of the damage before moving on to the next effect.  The alternative would have the black blood occur after the push, and not after the damage.

That's my opinion, at any rate.

[Maniacal_cackle]

To clarify, I also think the model suffers black blood damage.

Would be good to get some measurement timing rules clarified as well (do you measure when effects are generated, when initially resolving, throughout resolving, etc).

[solkan]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I disagree ever so slightly with Adran. I think that resolving black blood at step five applies a new damage effect to the attacking model, but you finish resolving the current effects. So it'd be:

* resolving trigger

* resolve black blood, generates new damage on the attacking model, but have to finish resolving other effects.

No, this is the place where you go off the rails.  There is no “but have to finish resolving other effects first”.

There is no “finish the other effect first before resolving a New triggered effect” rule.

If you punch a model with Black Blood, Black Blood goes off in Step 5.  And all of the damage caused by Black Blood gets resolved right then and there, causing a recursive damage sequence to be resolved.

The fact that Actions are generated and queued is a rule unique to Actions, it does not mean that there are secret unwritten rules for how to resolve one damage effect causing another to happen.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

@solkan, page 34 digital and sequential effects. It's not unique to actions.

Quote

Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves. In these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving onto any additional effect. Additional effects are then resolved in the order they were generated, after any effects which had been previously generated have resolved

There's the rules section I usually quote, but the fuller arguments can be found in older threads. But essentially resolving the trigger should generate two effects (damage + movement). Resolving the damage creates a new effect (black blood damage), which gets applied after the other waiting effects (movement) are finished.

It's not categorically correct, but it does avoid a lot of ridiculous damage interactions.