Attacking Oneself

[Kharnage]

Not being able to attack yourself is something I've always assumed was true, but a friend brought up the possibility of Shockwaving yourself to death (Papa Loco) and I was looking for where it says you can't attack yourself in the main rulebook, but couldn't find anything even disallowing people to normally attack themselves, much less shockwaving. I'm not very good at sifting through text though, can anyone tell me where this is stated?

EDIT: Nevermind, found it, page 23, under Step 3. Does this preclude it from shockwaving itself, since it's technically not targeting? 
EDIT 2, ELECTRIC BOOGALOO: Papa Loco also can't shockwave himself because Evasive, but still, "can you shockwave yourself" might have some other application.

[Adran]

As you say, you can't target yourself with an attack action, but Shockwave doesn't target so its fine to drop that grenade on your foot if you want to suffer the consequences.

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

That’s not how I interpretered that. The effects include taking the duel as far as I can tell. So shockwave December models and they just get to move.

From the rules, every model that is touched by the must pass the duel or suffer its effects. So if you pass the duel, you don't suffer the effects.

I guess it depends on when you start the resolve effects step, is it doing the whole pulse effect, including those duels, or is the resist duel on a shockwave part of the duel step...

[Kadeton]

Ice Tornado is a bit of a messy one, because it seems like there are layers of "effects". The effect of the Action is to create a Shockwave. The effect of that Shockwave is Damage 2.

The effects of the Shockwave (note the wording in the Shockwave rules, which specifically reference "the effects of the Shockwave") only apply if you fail the duel. However, friendly December models are able to ignore the effects of the Action, and it's not clear at all (to me at least) that these are the same as the effects of the Shockwave.

Unless there's been some re-wording of Ice Tornado since beta, I don't think this is definitively resolvable. It seems like a great FAQ candidate, since that would let us get to the intent. Requiring December models to fail the duel in order to push certainly feels wrong to me, and greatly devalues Snow Storm.

[Fetid Strumpet]

You can shockwave yourself since it doesn’t target. Otherwise there would be no point in abilities like Pandora’s that prevent friendly models from having to take the tests. As a note though, unless I missed it, remember it’s not an opposed duel, so you can’t relent a shockwave test. So if you want your model to fail, it actually has to fail the duel.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

EDIT: Nevermind, found it, page 23, under Step 3. Does this preclude it from shockwaving itself, since it's technically not targeting? 
EDIT 2, ELECTRIC BOOGALOO: Papa Loco also can't shockwave himself because Evasive, but still, "can you shockwave yourself" might have some other application.

"shockwaving yourself" is going to be the same thing as "blasting yourself".    

For the bonus question that you haven't asked yet, as of the last beta rules there's no option to relent (automatically fail) simple duels.

That's a bit important because there's stuff like Snow Storm's Ice Tornado action:

Quote

Ice Tornado 8" stat 6  rst * TN 12

Shockwave 2, Mv 13, Damage 2. When resolving, friendly December models may ignore the effects of this Action and instead Push up to 3" in any direction.

So if you want to move a friendly December model using that action:

1.  The acting model needs to succeed on a 6v12 simple duel to place the shockwave

2.  You place the shockwave so that the desired model is in the pulse.

3.  The friendly December model has to manage to fail a Mv v. 13 duel.  There's no relent option for this duel.

and if there are any enemies that get hurt that's a bonus.  But Snow Storm can certainly take the Ice Tornado action and put that shockwave on itself (or nearby) to get pushed.  Or to take the damage if there's some reason you want it to die (like creating an ice pillar).

At least that's as far as I can tell.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That’s not how I interpretered that. The effects include taking the duel as far as I can tell. So shockwave December models and they just get to move.

[Morgan Vening]

43 minutes ago, Adran said:

From the rules, every model that is touched by the must pass the duel or suffer its effects. So if you pass the duel, you don't suffer the effects.

I guess it depends on when you start the resolve effects step, is it doing the whole pulse effect, including those duels, or is the resist duel on a shockwave part of the duel step...

I think the word "instead" does a lot of the heavy lifting here. To me that indicates you have to suffer the effects to gain the push. Coupled with it having to ignore THE effect.

If it was to work regardless, I'd think

"Shockwave 2, Mv 13, Damage 2. When resolving, friendly December models may ignore any effects of this Action and Push up to 3" in any direction."

would make it work, pass or fail.

[solkan]

3 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

That’s not how I interpretered that. The effects include taking the duel as far as I can tell. So shockwave December models and they just get to move.

The problem with that interpretation is that unless you limit the effects that they’re “ignoring” to the result of the shockwaves, you can just point to all of the December models in play and say “Everybody pushes” regardless of where the shockwave markers are.

Shockwaves just aren’t written in a nice way to let a model choose to accept the effects, in the regular case or this one.

 

[Ludvig]

From the shockwave rules:

"The Dropped Marker generates a p equal to the Shockwave’s value. This Lightning Strike Action gen- erates a p1from the Dropped Shockwave Marker.

Any model that the Marker touches or that is affected by the p must pass the simple duel noted in the Shock- wave or suffer its effects. Both the simple duel and the penalty for failure are listed after the Shockwave value.

If a model would be affected by multiple Shockwave Markers Dropped by the same Action, it only resolves the effects of the Shockwave once. "

From Ice tornado:

 "When resolving, friendly December models may ignore the effects of this Action and instead Push up to 3" in any direction."

 

Note that you are AFFECTED if within the pulse and suffer the EFFECT of the action if you fail the duel. 

 

Notice how the duel sequence doesn't use the term that the action takes effect but that you apply the result of the action if the duel succeeds.

1. Declare the Action 2. Pay any Costs 3. Targeting 4. Perform Duels 5. Apply Results

Seems to me like you need to fail the duel.

[Erik1978]

Ah, just played my first Rasputina game and we both assumed the December models didn't take the duel and were just pushed.

Since shockwaves are different (target Df/Mv etc, various range and TN etc.) we assumed THAT was the effect, including the damage if you failed. But it seems the simple duel still needs to be taken? A bit silly if you ask me, they should just be pushed by the icy winds, not hoping to fail a duel to do so.