I think it's time to do something with Sandeep...

[Rillan]

Just now, Kadeton said:

Apart from Marcus, the other Arcanists tend to suffer from an inherent lack of flexibility in their approach to the game, or in some cases (looking at Colette and Kaeris) a straight-up lack of strength.

Reason i went from Arcanists to Guild cause i don''t want to play Sandeep/Marcus duo... 

@Kadeton btw u missed part that not only Sandeep but Entire Wave 4 is completely broken in comparison to other masters. Reva/Nellie/Sandeep/Barrows and e.t.c. they are all so balanced and good compared to others that u dont need other master and u play others only when u bored or need something special. If we talk about overall balance then either whole WAVE 4 needs nerf either whole bunch of BOOK 1-3 masters need to be rebalanced cause some of them are good and some long time ago went to gather shelf dust. Its completely bullshit when Malifaux meta and balance goes around WAVE 4 models and now in WAVE 5 they are trying to solve this problem by creating another. 

Another problem are auto-include models such as 
-Malifaux Child (one of the most popular mercerenary)
-Miranda (90% time u find her in Arcanist crew while opponents picks her only to Blitzcrieg u  when u pray to survive)
-Francisco (as a Guild player i can say that its totaly Unbalanced i have to take this model if i want to rise my 1.5 Masters survivability otherwise they are squishy like a glass)
- this list has be very big and im kinda lazy to write them all but i hope u got the idea

So if we talk about nerf lets dont forget about others. Sandeep is not the only meta's problem.

Thank u, sincerely your 

 

[Adran]

I disagree with some of the points in this thread, and it is partially because it always seems to be the case that when a player does really well in an event, there is so often calls that the Master they used is broken, and it needs fixing. Sandeep has been out for 18 months now, and I will admit I have played a lot less competitive games since his release, but whilst he has probably become the most popular Arcanist master, he has not risen to the top in everything. 

Whilst I dislike Myranda and imbued energies, I still argue that using it is weaker than hiring the Cerberus in the first place and giving it an upgrade except in a few circumstances where you really need a certain card. (And I've been arguing that since the release of book one on these forums). 

If you're having Sandeep problems you obviously ought to come over to the UK to play, in the 21 ranked events held this year, there has been 1 first place for Arcanists 3 second, and 1 3rd. (And Arcanists didn't get to the finals of the Masters either) I don't know what masters were used.

But seriously thats probably not very useful. 

I would argue its almost as easy to predict what a Sandeep player is going to do as it is to predict what a Nicodem/Kirai/dreamer player is going to do. 

 

 

 

 

 

[raderk]

Its not the case of one tournament. its the case of whole gg17 sandeep hamelin and somer domination, and now when sandeep continues to be #1 for another gg its simply ridiculus. and myranda with IE is like always better than hiring cerberus since that 4 cards is HUGE advantage. cards gives power, control and ability to dictate the pace of the game

[Rillan]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

Whilst I dislike Myranda and imbued energies, I still argue that using it is weaker than hiring the Cerberus in the first place and giving it an upgrade except in a few circumstances where you really need a certain card. (And I've been arguing that since the release of book one on these forums). 

It is very stong since u get both at once. Its ok if Myranda ment to be model that gives card OR damage boost but in scenario when u get 4 cards AND Cerberus which in same turn can use all of them its a huge boost even Slow doesnt bother Cerberus cause he can insta LEAP and them destroy almost any model in a single action + trigger.

[Gnomezilla]

33 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Aren't those usually needing to account for being able to copy actions that are Ca7 (or higher)?  

No. They are trying to drag copied casts down to Ca4 at most. (While some masters can boost their Ca above the action’s own 6/7, that bonus is nontransferable and doesn’t affect the copier’s intended Ca.) The changeling copy rule + rare limit was a better implementation of the idea.

Increasing the beacon penalty may help bring the spamming of three models each copying one master AP back to their intended cast power level. I can see where they took the initial -1 value from ice mirror, but those are Rasputina’s own AP, not extras from other models.

[Cedar]

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

You might want to take a Cerberus over Myranda if you are playing Ours. Playing 9 points down for the purpose of scoring the strategy is significant. 

IE is 4 cards, once. Even if he doesn't bring much in the way of a card draw engine, Nicodem is typically going to be drawing that many cards every turn.  

Well, you can still take Myranda with IE and sacrifice her in time of need for a beast (usually a cerberus, but i can see summoning other models with her, like Blessed of December).. Usually, losing 9 stones is very painful, but with her you can shift her before enemy would be able to kill her (7 DF and potential prevention flips means she'll likely survive enemy attacks). 

 

40 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

The problem with Sandeep (in my opinion) is that he completely eclipses everyone else in the Arcanists. That's why you're seeing so many "Sandeep players" - he's a really good choice for any scenario, and playing a single Master is easier, cheaper and more reliable under tournament conditions if you can get away with it, which he totally can.

He eclipses everyone thanks to his versatility. I agree, that masters like Colette, Kaeris and Mei Feng require a boost, however, I still suggest reducing Sandeep power level a bit - like changing the IE and causing his actions to be borrowed at -2 CA.

[Adran]

23 minutes ago, raderk said:

Its not the case of one tournament. its the case of whole gg17 sandeep hamelin and somer domination, and now when sandeep continues to be #1 for another gg its simply ridiculus. and myranda with IE is like always better than hiring cerberus since that 4 cards is HUGE advantage. cards gives power, control and ability to dictate the pace of the game

I though 20177 was Hamlin, Zipp, Nellie and Nico dominating. 

18 minutes ago, Rillan said:

It is very stong since u get both at once. Its ok if Myranda ment to be model that gives card OR damage boost but in scenario when u get 4 cards AND Cerberus which in same turn can use all of them its a huge boost even Slow doesnt bother Cerberus cause he can insta LEAP and them destroy almost any model in a single action + trigger.

It may just be the way I use cerberus, but to get the best out of him I find I really want that 3rd Ap from Imbued energies to allow him to attack from safety and consistently take out the target I want. That's much more use to his use than the 4 cards are on a turn where he is slow. I can accept that other models will  benefit from the cards. but the cerberus is at reduced power over a hired cerberus with an upgrade. (Plus sacrificing Myranda to create the Cerberus might let you get it into a good position, but you then have to hope the opponent can't hurt it badly on their activation.) 

Philip and the Nanny will draw 4 cards every turn, at the cost of having to discard your 2 worse cards, plus some scheme markers from somewhere.So I agree 4 cards is good, but its not like this is the only way to draw 4 cards in a turn. Also, the card draw is a tempo loss. Most of the time people want to use their strong cards for combats in early activations, because thats when the big hitters hitting hard can gain the greatest advantage (killign un-activated models). If you are holding back this big activation's to improve your hand first, then you end up having to react to what your opponent is doing, which might be a bad thing. 

 

<MOD HAT> Just a quiet reminder for people to play nice and make sure they respect each other </MODHAT>

[WWHSD]

20 minutes ago, Rillan said:

It is very stong since u get both at once. Its ok if Myranda ment to be model that gives card OR damage boost but in scenario when u get 4 cards AND Cerberus which in same turn can use all of them its a huge boost even Slow doesnt bother Cerberus cause he can insta LEAP and them destroy almost any model in a single action + trigger.

He can leap if you've got a 5+ Mask. That's mostly the same cards you need for Sandeep's place, his interact to allow a push, and his summons. I've had more than one game where even after drawing the cards for IE, I don't have the Mask needed to Leap. 

I'd much rather see something done to make Myranda more useful to keep on the table (even if it makes her a bit more expensive) than trying to nerf Myranda+IE. 

[Rillan]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

It may just be the way I use cerberus, but to get the best out of him I find I really want that 3rd Ap from Imbued energies to allow him to attack from safety and consistently take out the target I want. That's much more use to his use than the 4 cards are on a turn where he is slow. I can accept that other models will  benefit from the cards. but the cerberus is at reduced power over a hired cerberus with an upgrade

Your style works well if u find impossibility to out-activate your opponent and your main goal is to all in opponent. But when can, u are in a better spot and its a pure turn win since u get better hand and gain control over a table while opponent cant even react to this. There is no mechanic that can stop u doing it in either way even killing Myranda is a problem since she has DF 7 and always hides behind cover. If u compare this with Philip and Nanny u are bit wrong, to get her work u need to put Schemes and its a missed Action, also u need to spend her Action to draw while Myranda gets 4 cards and wrecks your crew with Cerberus and to do this she doesn't need any help at all.

[WWHSD]

19 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

No. They are trying to drag copied casts down to Ca4 at most. (While some masters can boost their Ca above the action’s own 6/7, that bonus is nontransferable and doesn’t affect the copier’s intended Ca.) The changeling copy rule + rare limit was a better implementation of the idea.

Increasing the beacon penalty may help bring the spamming of three models each copying one master AP back to their intended cast power level. I can see where they took the initial -1 value from ice mirror, but those are Rasputina’s own AP, not extras from other models.

For the most part Ca5 is kind of the standard Ca value, isn't it? Have there been many models outside of the ones in Book 1 or 2 that have an attack stat less then 5 (not counting Zipp's attack against Ht)?  

[raderk]

But its always their own attack. Not copied one which increase model's threat significantly. And to guy that argues that myranda with IE is worse than simple cerberus - why then shouldnt it be nerfed? In crews which can outactivate (sandeep!) its very very strong since that slow isnt that bad compared to extra cards usable on sandeeps actions.

Also about phillip and the nanny - that card draw is also too strong (especially for more potent summoners) and nico engine also should be taken care of. If you start a thread about nerfing it, ill second you right away.

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Rillan said:

Your style works well if u find impossibility to out-activate your opponent and your main goal is to all in opponent. But when can, u are in a better spot and its a pure turn win since u get better hand and gain control over a table while opponent cant even react to this. There is no mechanic that can stop u doing it in either way even killing Myranda is a problem since she has DF 7 and always hides behind cover. If u compare this with Philip and Nanny u are bit wrong, to get her work u need to put Schemes and its a missed Action, also u need to spend her Action to draw while Myranda gets 4 cards and wrecks your crew with Cerberus and to do this she doesn't need any help at all.

Philip can draw 2 discard 1 every turn by himself if you want. Its using his AP, but if all you are doing with Myranda is hiding her for the right time to get the cards, then you are losing her AP. And I've seen players easily drop 6-8 scheme markers around Philip Turn 1, so he is set up for the next 3-4 turns card draw. 

I think I've lost models with Imbued energies unexpectedly at the end of turns more often than I want to remember, so the bonus 4 cards are largely pointless for me, so whilst you can't stop the cards being drawn, you can make the timing of the draw less good.  

[Rillan]

5 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

He can leap if you've got a 5+ Mask. That's mostly the same cards you need for Sandeep's place, his interact to allow a push, and his summons. I've had more than one game where even after drawing the cards for IE, I don't have the Mask needed to Leap. 

I'd much rather see something done to make Myranda more useful to keep on the table (even if it makes her a bit more expensive) than trying to nerf Myranda+IE. 

In my personal i would offer two options either 
a) Make imbued energies work upon death only
b) Make a restriction that Myranda cant summon Beat with SS cost above 6+ cause 6+6 WK + 7 Leap with damage line 3/4/6 and infinitive attacks ir pretty damn overpowered compared to other models.

[Rillan]

Just now, Adran said:

h Myranda is hiding her for the right time to get the cards, then you are losing her AP

What are u loosing ? Turn one ? Dont make it more funny please.... On turn one with WK 6 she moves 12'' to nearest save Hard Cover (and since 70% on table is terrain and most of it is Hard Cover its not a waste at all) and then on Turn 2 she goes brutal.

[Adran]

1 minute ago, raderk said:

But its always their own attack. Not copied one which increase model's threat significantly. And to guy that argues that myranda with IE is worse than simple cerberus - why then shouldnt it be nerfed? In crews which can outactivate (sandeep!) its very very strong since that slow isnt that bad compared to extra cards usable on sandeeps actions.

Also about phillip and the nanny - that card draw is also too strong (especially for more potent summoners) and nico engine also should be taken care of. If you start a thread about nerfing it, ill second you right away.

I've said before that I wouldn't object to the myranda/IE combination changing, but I don't think its hugely overpowered. And whilst creating threads like this might bring unknown issues to the designers attention, I honestly don't think the internet arguments change their minds very much, so I very much doubt this thread will change their mind on if Sandeep need changing or not, and if he does, how they change it.

[WWHSD]

9 minutes ago, Rillan said:

In my personal i would offer two options either 
a) Make imbued energies work upon death only
b) Make a restriction that Myranda cant summon Beat with SS cost above 6+ cause 6+6 WK + 7 Leap with damage line 3/4/6 and infinitive attacks ir pretty damn overpowered compared to other models.

You might as well remove Myranda from the game at that point because she'll rarely get played. You'd almost need her to get an ability that lets her shift instead of being killed. 

Here's what she'd have left as options to shift into.
Cojo (6)
Razorspine Rattler (6)
Scorpius (6)
Poison Gamin (5)
Hoarcat Pride (4)
Moleman (4)
Malifaux Raptor (3)
Jackalope (2)

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Rillan said:

What are u loosing ? Turn one ? Dont make it more funny please.... On turn one with WK 6 she moves 12'' to nearest save Hard Cover (and since 70% on table is terrain and most of it is Hard Cover its not a waste at all) and then on Turn 2 she goes brutal.

How is the AP helping you win the game? yes she can get the cerberus into a good position to attack, but your opponent gets to activate before the cerberus is most cases. Leap probably helps him but I have had too many bad turns where 1 maul is not enough to kill that I really don't like risking it very often.  I would agree, her most efficient time to change is probably turn 2, but if you do it any later than that, what else does she do whilst she remains safe?

[Rillan]

Just now, Adran said:

How is the AP helping you win the game? yes she can get the cerberus into a good position to attack, but your opponent gets to activate before the cerberus is most cases. Leap probably helps him but I have had too many bad turns where 1 maul is not enough to kill that I really don't like risking it very often.  I would agree, her most efficient time to change is probably turn 2, but if you do it any later than that, what else does she do whilst she remains safe?

I already answered above. Once u see u can out-activate your opponent and its not a problem at all for Arcanists cause they have very great model 4-7 SS model pool and even on a tie 8 vs 8 10 vs 10 models u just need to activate Myranda one of the last or just push your opponent to cheat/discard cards /Acolytes fit here very well/ and then it comes to her Greatest hour cause when opponent has 1-3+ cards and u get 1-3+4 cards and *free* Activation its a very strong move.  (and lets not talk about Necodem and Sandeep  those guys are gods in this question and Sandeep + Myranda is a huge boost even when u dont need Cerberus cause those cards can help summon/furious casting/discard to get suit and so on...) 

[Rillan]

13 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

You might as well remove Myranda from the game at that point because she'll rarely get played. You'd almost need her to get an ability that lets her shift instead of being killed. 

Here's what she'd have left as options to shift into.
Cojo (6)
Razorspine Rattler (6)
Scorpius (6)
Poison Gamin (5)
Hoarcat Pride (4)
Moleman (4)
Malifaux Raptor (3)
Jackalope (2)

Might be i got it too hot and it would be better with up to 7 SS so Slate ridge Mauler would get in too but lets be honest Myranda is a support model and let her be a supportive model rather than bruiser that can Charge + Summon + Card Draw or safely Summon + Card Draw + Leap/Attack...

[raderk]

Its fair trade for myranda to sabretooth with slow. Whole her kit is around that one change i believe. Still Cerberus + 4 cards are overpowered in my opinion.

I agree that making her unable to change into any beast would make her dirt tier, lets nerf things with caution.

[Rillan]

Just now, raderk said:

Its fair trade for myranda to sabretooth with slow. Whole her kit is around that one change i believe. Still Cerberus + 4 cards are overpowered in my opinion.

I agree that making her unable to change into any beast would make her dirt tier, lets nerf things with caution.

So there comes 

29 minutes ago, Rillan said:

a) Make imbued energies work upon death only

option that balances Myranda and wont destroy other models and strats that use IE.

[WWHSD]

6 minutes ago, Rillan said:

Might be i got it too hot and it would be better with up to 7 SS so Slate ridge Mauler would get in too but lets be honest Myranda is a support model and let her be a supportive model rather than bruiser that can Charge + Summon + Card Draw or safely Summon + Card Draw + Leap/Attack...

I don't think that would help at all. The Slate Ridge Mauler isn't that good without its 0 point upgrade. 

[raderk]

I believe that 4 cards myranda is an exploit and with change to IE that it wont trigger on sacrifice Myranda can stay the way she is.

[Rillan]

Just now, raderk said:

I believe that 4 cards myranda is an exploit and with change to IE that it wont trigger on sacrifice Myranda can stay the way she is.

As an option it could be 
Imbued Energies: When this model is killed or sacrificed, draw four cards. If the sacrificed model is Myranda draw two cards instead.

How do u think about it ?
 

[raderk]

Why make thigs overly complicated.

When this model is killed by an enemy attack action draw X cards (i believe 4 is too much, but wth its hard to achieve so i can live with that)