I think it's time to do something with Sandeep...

[Milutki]

Hello Wyrdos !

I'm a player form Poland and recently we had a big tournament, 46 players. In top 3 we had 2 Sandeep players (not Arcanist, because they all went fixed master Sandeep in all six games), one of the was first, and the other one ended third. Most of the polish players agrees that Sandeep is just too good. He has everything - good summoning, he supports his crew really well, offers mobility in form of placement effects and pushes (Oxfordian Mages/Captain/Angelica), can hit with Banasuva, and is hard to kill because of his high cache, ITW, 12 wd and arcane shield. The main issue is, that beacuse of this reliability and power he was not hit at all by GG18, and I'm pretty much sure, that it is impossible to hit him with any form of scheme pool and beacause of that 6/7 Arcanists players on the tournament went fixed Sandeep. Since december i haven't played against any other Arcanist master than Sandeep( I'm TT/guild player). He is so good, that i think that other Arcanist masters have been forgotten by polish players. So, my main point is - i think it's time to nerf this guy in some way, beacuse a) he is too good b) he destroys meta diversity. It would encourage arcanist player to bring other masters on the tournament table, and they are not bad at all !

I would love to hear your opinions and situation of arcanists in your meta (please write where do you play).

Sorry for my bad english

[Emeryt]

Not to mention that Sandeep, being AR, just breaks the game.

 

He got Myranda with Imbued Energies, that's a free activation (Cerberus) and 4 extra cards turn one.

He got cheap Mages, 3 strong activations for 15SS with Well Rehearsed, which makes them even more survivable.

He got Raptor, to look for high cards for summoning (Raptor attacks Myranda on its first activation).

Recently he got Kandara, so Banasuva is now a very potent threat.

 

Not to mention the Master himself. He's an excellent supporter to the band, can hit very hard and can survive a lot. Ain't that too much?

 

What's more, when playing against Sandeep, you can't have a plan and predict opponent's moves. Cos there's just way too possibilities for his team to do, he can counter any of your plans. 

Shall I continue?

[Cedar]

1 hour ago, Emeryt said:

Not to mention that Sandeep, being AR, just breaks the game.

 

To be honest, he would do the same silly stuff in any faction. His kit is too good currently.

 

1 hour ago, Emeryt said:

He got Myranda with Imbued Energies, that's a free activation (Cerberus) and 4 extra cards turn one

It's too good currently. I think the IE should be changed to trigger only on kills/sacrifices caused by enemy actions. Right now there is no point of taking Cerberus, as you could hire Myranda with Energies for the same price.

 

1 hour ago, Emeryt said:

He got cheap Mages, 3 strong activations for 15SS with Well Rehearsed, which makes them even more survivable.

What is more - in two strategies right now, the always avaiable scheme is Guarded Treasure which is very easy to do with mages or other models (who can borrow Sandeep place action).

For now, he overshadows other Arcanists Masters, which is sad as this faction has fun masters to play with, like Raspy, Mei Feng or Kaeris, but their kit is not even close to what Sandeep can bring to the table. My ideas of changing him would be 1) Changing IE to trigger draw only when model is killed/sacrificed by enemy model 2) Either removing Impossible to wound from Sandeep (so he would be susceptible to alpha strikes or change his beacon ability to cause -2 CA instead of -1 CA penalty for actions taken by other models.

EDIT: I would also change suit required for Student of all from  to , as it's too easy to meet the requirement (any model can copy Arcane Storm or Oxfordians can cast any borrowed spell with  in their final duel total thanks to their own ability that adds tomes to their casts).

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

Just in case you don't know: there was a discussion recently at the Arcanists forum about the possible nerf of Mages which eventually developed into conversation about Sandeep:

 

[hemgath]

So the concept here is:
*Nerf Sandeep
*Nerf Oxfordian
*Nerf Myranda / Imbued Energy

Maybe it's a bit too aggressive ? ^^ Hard accumulation

[WWHSD]

5 hours ago, Cedar said:

It's too good currently. I think the IE should be changed to trigger only on kills/sacrifices caused by enemy actions. Right now there is no point of taking Cerberus, as you could hire Myranda with Energies for the same price.

You might want to take a Cerberus over Myranda if you are playing Ours. Playing 9 points down for the purpose of scoring the strategy is significant. 

IE is 4 cards, once. Even if he doesn't bring much in the way of a card draw engine, Nicodem is typically going to be drawing that many cards every turn.  

[raderk]

Just because Nicodem is the next best thing and also hugely overpowered that does not make myranda with IE not stupiditly powerful. The only good thing about nico is low amount of rez players using him in polish meta.

I personally can agree with mages as they are, but for me myranda with +4 cards are simply exploit which should be fixed asap. That card draw is just insane and makes her autoinclude in every list possible, ever. Drawing that many cards (keep in mind most of crews gets only 6 per turn as their hand) is sick and should be nerfed. I think that nerfing IE combined with little cuddle for sandeep himself (-2Ca on borrowed actions, or removing ability to do fourth action during his turn) would make arcanists much healthier fraction.

Of course as neverborn player i agree that collodi and lilith are also overpowered and they make other master (with maybe exception of pandora) not needed. And they deserve to be nerfed. Yet still they are not as gamebreaking as sandeep himself.

[WWHSD]

The problem with nerfing Sandeep is that he's not broken good. His balance problem is an Arcanist internal balance issue and not an overall game balance problem. If he just gets a couple of nerfs he's likely to join Colette on the shelf. To actually "fix" Sandeep he probably requires a combination of nerfs and buffs to give him an actual niche instead of just being a really strong generalist.  

[SAYNE]

I think I'm in the IE + Myranda doesn't NEED to be nerfed camp. It's strong. Stronger than quite a few options, but that means you HAVE to pay for Myranda and IE, and then lose that model to summon another one. This is bad in Ours, or any scheme that you need to keep henchman or use them. It's a great option if those aren't on the table, but it's not game breaking in that it's universally applicable.

Sandeep... Is actually a mystery to me. I don't think he does anything better than any of the other Arcanists other than be number 2 in everything. The universally combined power of his kit, upgrades, totem, and synergies tend to push him over the edge for me. But if you asked what exactly I'd want to cuddle I couldn't tell you. His "thing" is that he's a jack of all trades. But we know of course that if you ever want to see play, you need to be a queen of all trades. So that's how he was built. 2nd place at everything. 

I do think that decreasing the Borrowing Ca thing should be -2 instead of -1 since that's the standard throughout the game. Skeeters, Malifaux Child, etc. Maybe that's enough to help? It'll put most things on Ca4, so offensive tricks aren't likely to work that well and will drain more cards.

 

[SAYNE]

To further that, maybe increase the Damage spread. He becomes much more deadly, and with copying abilities can put out huge damage but it will hit his crew's reliability.

[raderk]

The point is, sandeep is broken good. He does everything and then more, I belive any sandeep player can show his opponent his list before the game and opponent cannot do anything. There is no weak points in his game. Interacts? Got it, mages are cheap, gamins are significant and theres that free interact action. Damage? Between banasuva, sandeep, sandeep actions you've got mages with furious casting. Oh and a gamin who gives + to attacks in case enemy is in  cover. Survivability? Mages are one of the toughest 5ss models in this game and theres sandeep with arcane shield and ItW. Activations? Only gremlins and hamelin beats him here.

Sandeep is broken good sadly, hes the strongest master in the game currently

[WWHSD]

8 minutes ago, raderk said:

I personally can agree with mages as they are, but for me myranda with +4 cards are simply exploit which should be fixed asap. That card draw is just insane and makes her autoinclude in every list possible, ever. 

I might be wrong but Myranda isn't in every Arcanist crew that hits the table. It sounds like she's definitely the flavor of the month in Poland.  

[raderk]

And myranda with IE are broken good - simply compare it - enemy has 6 cards and arcanist has 10. Thats 66% increase. Thats one more 11+ in hand more or less. Thats much stable hand. And youre not losing anything between maybe points on ours, yet still all of ours sandeeps use her even in this strategy

 

[raderk]

The only other as stupid card engines in game is Shenlong (less cards and more resources, but can be exploited every turn), and nicodem (the best and most gamebreaking card engine in game). All three should be nerfed since its way to strong compared to 6cards starting hand of opponent.

[WWHSD]

3 minutes ago, raderk said:

The point is, sandeep is broken good. He does everything and then more, I belive any sandeep player can show his opponent his list before the game and opponent cannot do anything. There is no weak points in his game. Interacts? Got it, mages are cheap, gamins are significant and theres that free interact action. Damage? Between banasuva, sandeep, sandeep actions you've got mages with furious casting. Oh and a gamin who gives + to attacks in case enemy is in  cover. Survivability? Mages are one of the toughest 5ss models in this game and theres sandeep with arcane shield and ItW. Activations? Only gremlins and hamelin beats him here.

Sandeep is broken good sadly, hes the strongest master in the game currently

You created a thread based on that complaint and when people suggested things that might help you dismissed them all out of hand. People all over the word are managing to beat Sandeep. He's not winning everything everywhere. 

[raderk]

like he did not win swedish nationals or polish nationals?

[WWHSD]

5 minutes ago, raderk said:

And myranda with IE are broken good - simply compare it - enemy has 6 cards and arcanist has 10. Thats 66% increase. Thats one more 11+ in hand more or less. Thats much stable hand. And youre not losing anything between maybe points on ours, yet still all of ours sandeeps use her even in this strategy

 

It's a big boost to a hand, once. Honestly, I'd rather have something that gives one or two cards each turn. 

[raderk]

oh, so youre sandeep player?

[WWHSD]

1 minute ago, raderk said:

like he did not win swedish nationals or polish nationals?

So what? A strong master played by a good player wins a big tournament, that should be expected. Just because he's able to win consistently doesn't make him broken. Other factions are still winning tournaments.  

[WWHSD]

3 minutes ago, raderk said:

oh, so youre sandeep player?

I play Sandeep, I told you as much when I was trying to give you some advice on what to do to beat him. I also lose games with him, so I know that he's beatable.

[raderk]

Where are you from? Does your country has any league or anything that can indicate you as top10% player?

 

EDIT by moderator

Moderator note - Please remember to be polite. Written words do not convey tone well. All posters are entitled to opinions regardless of their results

[WWHSD]

7 minutes ago, raderk said:

Where are you from? Does your country has any league or anything that can indicate you as top10% player?

Sorry, I didn't realize that this was a dick measuring contest. I'll find my way out.  

[Kadeton]

Prior to Wave 5 and the latest errata, I would have agreed strongly that Sandeep needed a downward adjustment.

However, while he's still undeniably strong, I don't think he's game-breaking (and personally, I don't think he was ever the strongest Master in the game). Other Masters have been given significant power boosts through new or cheaper upgrades and models, and GG18.

The problem with Sandeep (in my opinion) is that he completely eclipses everyone else in the Arcanists. That's why you're seeing so many "Sandeep players" - he's a really good choice for any scenario, and playing a single Master is easier, cheaper and more reliable under tournament conditions if you can get away with it, which he totally can.

I'd suggest that a better thing to think about would be how to make the other Arcanist Masters stronger choices, to compete at Sandeep's level, rather than knocking him down to theirs. Apart from Marcus, the other Arcanists tend to suffer from an inherent lack of flexibility in their approach to the game, or in some cases (looking at Colette and Kaeris) a straight-up lack of strength. Their faction-wide errata adjustments were pretty conservative, because any adjustment would benefit Sandeep as much as any of them, but their individual adjustments were mostly pretty meek as well. Just bringing them up to par would see more variety in games, which would help address the perception that it's Sandeep in particular that's the problem.

[WWHSD]

34 minutes ago, SAYNE said:

I do think that decreasing the Borrowing Ca thing should be -2 instead of -1 since that's the standard throughout the game. Skeeters, Malifaux Child, etc. Maybe that's enough to help? It'll put most things on Ca4, so offensive tricks aren't likely to work that well and will drain more cards.

Aren't those usually needing to account for being able to copy actions that are Ca7 (or higher)?  

[raderk]

Kadeton: that doesnt answer why sandeep always places so high in tournaments, and all players use very similiar strong list with no counters. the only other contendants for #1 spot are hamelin who got hit by gg18 so hes not that breaking anymore (yet, hes still very strong) and nico with his crazy enginge (which is because its case of buffing master backfire, same as misaki). I belive that toning down imbued energies, because sabretooth +4 cards + an activation for free, and taking down one of sandeeps abilities (itw, copying or free action) would make him reasonable. That saying i support nerfing other overpowered masters - nico, shenlong, collodi, lilith, reva, zipp and nellie.

Buffing other masters is way to risky, since they are not as played as sandeep now its hard to determine their current power lvl therefore theres high risk of another misaki/nicodem scenario.