Cherufe's Parting Gift timing.

[WWHSD]

"After damaging: These effects happen after Step
5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage
from the Action. These effects are resolved before
the damaged model is removed if it was killed by
the damage."

From that bit in the rules, it seems clear that an attack that does enough damage to kill a target would put burning on the target before it is removed from play. Is the burning applied before the model is killed?

The upgrade "Cherufe's Parting Gift" has an ability called "An Echo of Power". The ability text starts like this "After an enemy model is killed while it has the Burning Condition ...". If Sonnia attacks a target that does not have burning, deals enough damage to kill it, and gets her Consuming Flame trigger, would the model count as being killed while having the condition?
 

[Franchute]

You need to have burning on the target previously. Hence, Sonnia cant summon in this situation.

[Adran]

The model is killed when you damage it and reduce its wounds to 0. the burning is applied before it is removed, but it is after it is killed,. 

[Ludvig]

You need to have burning from an earlier source like Franchute said. The aura from the witchling handler has the same timing.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Franchute said:

You need to have burning on the target previously. Hence, Sonnia cant summon in this situation.

That's how we played it but we weren't positive we handled it correctly.

[Ludvig]

While the triggers are clear as day we forgot Sonnia's new melee play style upgrade "No more masks".

It gives her the following ability:

Unleashed: If this model deals damage with a  Action, any damaged models gain the Burning +1 condition and this model may push 2" in any direction.

So after determining how much damage the attack caused but before applying reductions and actually calculating damage taken I could apply burning so that the model dies while having burning. Pages 46 and 47 (big book) on damage seems to indicate that there is a step between determining how much you would suffer and how much you end up suffering. This ability kicks in when you knoq how much she inflicted but before application and any reduction the way I'm looking at it. A similar thing applies to the faq on McMourning healing the flipped amount rather than the one applied after reduction. 

Thoughts?

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

While the triggers are clear as day we forgot Sonnia's new melee play style upgrade "No more masks".

It gives her the following ability:

Unleashed: If this model deals damage with a  Action, any damaged models gain the Burning +1 condition and this model may push 2" in any direction.

So after determining how much damage the attack caused but before applying reductions and actually calculating damage taken I could apply burning so that the model dies while having burning. Pages 46 and 47 (big book) on damage seems to indicate that there is a step between determining how much you would suffer and how much you end up suffering. This ability kicks in when you knoq how much she inflicted but before application and any reduction the way I'm looking at it. A similar thing applies to the faq on McMourning healing the flipped amount rather than the one applied after reduction. 

Thoughts?

You don't know if she deals damage until after things like reductions and prevention come into play. The passage on using soulstones that you reference should make that pretty clear, because it even says you don't stone for prevention until after you know how much damage the model would take. After that point the Unleashed ability checks to see if the model was damaged by the action to apply the burning, which means they're dead. Now, since it doesn't say after the model suffers damage, just "if", and we know from FAQ #97 that that when an ability happens if something causes it, it happens when it causes it. So burning and damage are applied at the same time.

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

You don't know if she deals damage until after things like reductions and prevention come into play. The passage on using soulstones that you reference should make that pretty clear, because it even says you don't stone for prevention until after you know how much damage the model would take. After that point the Unleashed ability checks to see if the model was damaged by the action to apply the burning, which means they're dead. Now, since it doesn't say after the model suffers damage, just "if", and we know from FAQ #97 that that when an ability happens if something causes it, it happens when it causes it. So burning and damage are applied at the same time.

I take deals to have the same meaning as McMournings heal when he inflicts damage so before both armour and soulstone prevention is considered since they reduce the damage suffered by the defending model but not how much was dealt or inflicted. Even if the model ends up suffering zero damage my attack dealt some damage before it was reduced. After damaging triggers on the other hand only work if the target actually suffers damage which is why they can be soulstoned away. This further clarifies that these are two distinct steps to me.

[Math Mathonwy]

4 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I take deals to have the same meaning as McMournings heal when he inflicts damage so before both armour and soulstone prevention is considered since they reduce the damage suffered by the defending model but not how much was dealt or inflicted. Even if the model ends up suffering zero damage my attack dealt some damage before it was reduced. After damaging triggers on the other hand only work if the target actually suffers damage which is why they can be soulstoned away. This further clarifies that these are two distinct steps to me.

Would also be consistent with Dumb Luck in that the Gremlin suffers half the damage after the damage flip but before reductions and preventions.

[WWHSD]

7 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I take deals to have the same meaning as McMournings heal when he inflicts damage so before both armour and soulstone prevention is considered since they reduce the damage suffered by the defending model but not how much was dealt or inflicted. Even if the model ends up suffering zero damage my attack dealt some damage before it was reduced. After damaging triggers on the other hand only work if the target actually suffers damage which is why they can be soulstoned away. This further clarifies that these are two distinct steps to me.

I think it gets complicated by triggering when Sonnia deals damage but the effect is that "any model damaged" receives burning. If the target of the attack soulstoned away the damage then it would qualify as a a target for the effect would it?

[Ludvig]

55 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I think it gets complicated by triggering when Sonnia deals damage but the effect is that "any model damaged" receives burning. If the target of the attack soulstoned away the damage then it would qualify as a a target for the effect would it?

Tricky, I think that question depends on how you play models with critical strike. If the defender stones away the initial damage on an attack with crit strike do you treat it as a black joker and don't allow the extra damage from crit strike or do you stone away damage from the total damage inflicted with crit strike because that trigger has already resolved when the stone is used to prevent? Since crit strike has the same timing of being when damaging I think they should apply in a similar way. This ability basically checks if your attack dealt damage and kicks in before applying it so I would assume you could do burning on a "damaged" model despite it stoning away the actual damage suffered at a later step of the resolution because by then you have already fully resolved this ability. I think damaged is used to mean the model that is being currently damaged by the attack since target or defender couldn't be used if the attack was supposed to work on all models hit by a blast. It's basically model affected by the current damage resolution.

[Ludvig]

9 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

You don't know if she deals damage until after things like reductions and prevention come into play. The passage on using soulstones that you reference should make that pretty clear, because it even says you don't stone for prevention until after you know how much damage the model would take. After that point the Unleashed ability checks to see if the model was damaged by the action to apply the burning, which means they're dead. Now, since it doesn't say after the model suffers damage, just "if", and we know from FAQ #97 that that when an ability happens if something causes it, it happens when it causes it. So burning and damage are applied at the same time.

There are several abilities like McMourning's heal and dumb luck on several gremlins that applies when the model deals damage and doesn't care if the defendih model actually suffers it. These must therefore be resolved in the step where the attacking model has dealt it's damage but where the damaged model gets a chance to reduce it through defensive abilities and soulstones.  The damage the model suffers is reduced but not the damage dealt by the attack which also means there seems to be a step where the damager has dealt damage but the damaged models has yet to suffer any damage. On page 47 it says you can stone after determining how much damage you would take, so it is at this point where we know how much damage the attack dealt but before we determine how much the damaged model suffered that I fully resolve my ability based on it's timing. It idn'tresolved after anything but immediately if the attack deals damage which is before the damaged model suffers it.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Tricky, I think that question depends on how you play models with critical strike. If the defender stones away the initial damage on an attack with crit strike do you treat it as a black joker and don't allow the extra damage from crit strike or do you stone away damage from the total damage inflicted with crit strike because that trigger has already resolved when the stone is used to prevent? Since crit strike has the same timing of being when damaging I think they should apply in a similar way. This ability basically checks if your attack dealt damage and kicks in before applying it so I would assume you could do burning on a "damaged" model despite it stoning away the actual damage suffered at a later step of the resolution because by then you have already fully resolved this ability. I think damaged is used to mean the model that is being currently damaged by the attack since target or defender couldn't be used if the attack was supposed to work on all models hit by a blast. It's basically model affected by the current damage resolution.

 

I've never really thought about it before. Using this wording for Critical Strike (not sure if there are others, it seems like Wyrd has a few abilities that change a bit) it seems like you'd add the extra damage before any reduction takes place.

 Critical Strike: When damaging the target, this Attack deals +1 damage for each  in the final duel total.

I don't think it works out quite the same though since the wording seems to be a bit different. 

Unleashed: If this model deals damage with a  Action, any damaged models gain the Burning +1 condition and this model may push 2" in any direction.

I think that Unleashed would only apply burning if damage got through but that Sonnia would get her 2 inch push regardless. I'm equating a "damaged model" with a "model that suffered damage" and not "a model to which damage was dealt".  I'm not sure that I'm correct.  If we were standing at a table playing a game I'd be inclined to let you play it your way if you thought you were right.

 

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, Ludvig said:

There are several abilities like McMourning's heal and dumb luck on several gremlins that applies when the model deals damage and doesn't care if the defendih model actually suffers it. These must therefore be resolved in the step where the attacking model has dealt it's damage but where the damaged model gets a chance to reduce it through defensive abilities and soulstones.  The damage the model suffers is reduced but not the damage dealt by the attack which also means there seems to be a step where the damager has dealt damage but the damaged models has yet to suffer any damage. On page 47 it says you can stone after determining how much damage you would take, so it is at this point where we know how much damage the attack dealt but before we determine how much the damaged model suffered that I fully resolve my ability based on it's timing. It idn'tresolved after anything but immediately if the attack deals damage which is before the damaged model suffers it.

McMournings heal says Inflict, so it's not the same. Dumb Luck says it the model suffers half the amount that the target suffers, not half of what was dealt, so again, not the same. In fact, the only instances where "deal" is used as a conditional statement is with Hidden Agenda, where it says "Once per Turn, after this model deals damage to an enemy model...", the Tengu's Katanaka's Mark trigger to place a scheme marker after dealing moderate or severe damage, the Wastels' Stragemetal Shiv trigger which gives their Ml attack +1 damage and gives slow "If the Attack deals damage", Bloated Stench which forces models to suffer 1 damage if they deal damage to him, Yan Lo's trigger to gain Chi on Spirit Barrage after killing or "dealing severe damage",  The Guilty's Df trigger which is the same as Bloated Stench but for tormented models, Nix's ability to reduce severity down from Severe to Moderate. Dreamer's Toss and Turn ability on Resless Dreams is just after he deals damage with a Sh action. Playtime which is just after dealing damage. Collodi's My Bidding trigger is After Dealing Damage. Fees which is after an attack "which dealt damage" to another model, Conflux of Combat which gives an ability that triggers on Mei Feng "deals damage with an Ml attack", Bloodwretches' The Rage Builds which is when this model deals damage, Wrath's aura which the models have to suffer two damage or discard unless they dealt damage to him, which has the clarifying text "damage which was prevented does not count". Flaming Conflux gives an ability that friendly minions "which deal damage to an enemy model with an Attack action may suffer 1 to give burning +1", Anna's The Damned Gather trigger is "after dealing moderate or severe damage", Aionus' bury trigger is "After dealing Severe damage", and then a bunch of that are basically "if this attack action deals damage, deal +x damage" or the various triggers to add a blast on moderate and severe are "while dealing damage". To the best of my knowledge, none of these have an FAQ entry on if they actually need to damage a model or not for their various effects to go off.


I see a lot of effects in that list that seem pretty obvious that they're based on the target actually suffering the damage, a lot that basically just mean if the attack has a damage track, and a few that could go either way. Wrath's aura sticks out in having the "damage prevented doesn't count" which implys that if you prevent damage you weren't dealt any, but any other form of taking less damage still counts as being dealt damage. But really, the crux of the issue with Sonnia's ability is that the burning isn't conditional on the attack dealing damage, it's conditional on the model being damaged.


I think the real question is, m2.5/m3 when? This is just another way the current ruleset is showing it's age and that you really shouldn't look too closely at it if you want to maintain your sanity.

[Ludvig]

Thank you for all those examples.

I have always played that Yan Lo gets chi if he dealt severe even if they reduced it with both armour and soulstones. Same thing for Collodi, since that trigger is snuck in between two after damaging triggers which we know are different. I believe all Collodi's triggers were written specifically for it and not copypasted from another model like you see sometimes with common trigger.

"If you deal damage, deal extra" I have also always applied before ss reduction.

I guess unleashed would be kind of weird if every damaged model (as in every model you are currently resolving against instead of those actully suffering) would gain burning each time you flipped damage against one of them.

A new edition or just several general faq answers to clarify the usual culprits, timing questions and what is considered the same wording across somr common abilities would solve a lot. Some abilities might change for a lot of players but I don't think the game would break. Timing would be way easier if we knew some of this stuff.

 

[lame0]

36 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Thank you for all those examples.

I have always played that Yan Lo gets chi if he dealt severe even if they reduced it with both armour and soulstones. Same thing for Collodi, since that trigger is snuck in between two after damaging triggers which we know are different. I believe all Collodi's triggers were written specifically for it and not copypasted from another model like you see sometimes with common trigger.

"If you deal damage, deal extra" I have also always applied before ss reduction.

I guess unleashed would be kind of weird if every damaged model (as in every model you are currently resolving against instead of those actully suffering) would gain burning each time you flipped damage against one of them.

A new edition or just several general faq answers to clarify the usual culprits, timing questions and what is considered the same wording across somr common abilities would solve a lot. Some abilities might change for a lot of players but I don't think the game would break. Timing would be way easier if we knew some of this stuff.

 

so true :'(

[Adran]

Its not quite the same but the FAQ has Sandeeps abiltiy on behold another world will only trigger if the damage is suffered (Q106) . I would expect all after damaging abilities to require the modle to be damaged to happen (which differs from the whilst damaging abilities, and conditions that are included in the attack action in the first place)

[Ludvig]

Given how hard I'm having to argue my point I will most likely not bw trying to use it like this since I'm not looking forward to a legal debate each game. Would have been fun if it worked but it's far from certain. 

Given that the upgrade will likely only ever see play when you're trying to actively make Sonnia worse it isn't that big a deal. She has so many other good upgrades to choose from.