Sebastion, rafkin, and mcmourning.

[Kinginyello]

So, i have been playing where if under sebations poison auras and a poisoned enemy prevents the 1 damage, he will not be subject to the other 2 damage.

This leads me to rafkin, if you damage a poisoned enemy model under rafkins aura for 1 base damage and they reduce it to 0, do they take 1 additional damage anyways? (So 2 damage total before preventions armor and what not)

Reason Why i ask is due to faq of mcmourning. He gains wounds equal to how much the enemy suffered yet faq clarifies that this means when flipping the damage, not how much is actually taken. He heals ignoring soulstones and nurse meds but is worded by target suffers. Why doesnt sebation auras and rafkin work when triggered before calculating of how much damage is suffered(ignoring black jokers here) after soulstone and such like mcmournings effect?

Edited September 20, 2017 by Kinginyello
Clarified meaning with rafkin

[Myyrä]

4 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Except that's literally what you do if you get hit by a model that has Hallucinogens. You have their initial damage, go through any reductions and preventions, then add 2 damage on top of that if any damage was suffered.

How in the **** did you come up with this?

Hallucinogens says that "This model's Ml Attack Actions deal +2 damage." Condition on a model is that model's effect, so timing couldn't possibly cause this weirdness, especially when this isn't a question about timing but math order and the rules say that "Modifiers should be applied in the following order: Multiply, Divide, Add, and then Subtract.".

[Bengt]

72. If a Trigger on an Action causes damage (whether a flip or a fxed amount), does that count as part of
the original Action? Is it modifed by effects like the Accuracy Modifer and Focus? Do fxed damage
bonuses (such as from Hallucinogens or The Bigger They Are) apply to the Trigger?
Triggers that cause damage are a part of the Action which caused them. Any damage flip on such a Trigger
would retain any Fate Modifers to the original flip including Accuracy, Focus, cover, etc. Any fxed damage
(such as the +1 damage from The Bigger They Are) only applies to the initial Action (not any resulting
Triggers). (3/30/17)
 

[solkan]

5 hours ago, Kinginyello said:

So, i have been playing where if under sebations poison auras and a poisoned enemy prevents the 1 damage, he will not be subject to the other 2 damage.

You determine how much damage the model will suffer before you attempt to prevent the damage or apply it.

You don't apply X damage, then retroactively remove damage and add damage.

 

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, solkan said:

You determine how much damage the model will suffer before you attempt to prevent the damage or apply it.

You don't apply X damage, then retroactively remove damage and add damage.

 

Except that's literally what you do if you get hit by a model that has Hallucinogens. You have their initial damage, go through any reductions and preventions, then add 2 damage on top of that if any damage was suffered.

[Ludvig]

Sebastian's ability is different from a +2 modifier I think. Plus sign modifiers state that you need to cause more than 0 damage with the attack to add them, Induction just says that poison does additional damage when it does damage to you.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

Hallucinogens says that "This model's Ml Attack Actions deal +2 damage." Condition on a model is that model's effect, so timing couldn't possibly cause this weirdness, especially when this isn't a question about timing but math order and the rules say that "Modifiers should be applied in the following order: Multiply, Divide, Add, and then Subtract.".

^This. Nothing tells you to add it after soulstone reduction, it is active while causing damage so general math applies.

[Clement]

6 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Hallucinogens says that "This model's Ml Attack Actions deal +2 damage." Condition on a model is that model's effect, so timing couldn't possibly cause this weirdness, especially when this isn't a question about timing but math order and the rules say that "Modifiers should be applied in the following order: Multiply, Divide, Add, and then Subtract.".

Digressing for a second, I'd always played it as the attack damage is totalled up using math, then damage reduction is done using math.  If a model flips a weak damage of 1 against an incorporeal model, but has hallucinogens condition, it does 3 damage or 2?

[Kinginyello]

56 minutes ago, Clement said:

Digressing for a second, I'd always played it as the attack damage is totalled up using math, then damage reduction is done using math.  If a model flips a weak damage of 1 against an incorporeal model, but has hallucinogens condition, it does 3 damage or 2?

I play it as total damage of attack + meds then apply reductions.  So if 1+2 =3 then divide by 2 rounding up, so 2 damage total.

[Myyrä]

10 minutes ago, Kinginyello said:

I play it as total damage of attack + meds then apply reductions.  So if 1+2 =3 then divide by 2 rounding up, so 2 damage total.

This seems to be correct, as incorporeal doesn't really divide the damage by 2. It reduces it by half, which isn't the same thing.

[Kinginyello]

On 9/20/2017 at 7:16 PM, solkan said:

You determine how much damage the model will suffer before you attempt to prevent the damage or apply it.

You don't apply X damage, then retroactively remove damage and add damage.

 

There is no new question, just reiteration to make sure i understand it correctly. 

So, sebastion, rafkin, mcmourning, bayou gremlins, and seamus (certainly more) all reference if the target suffers damage. This means if the target suffers damage before preventions, reductions, and +/- X damage modifiers or simply put, what the card flipped.

This is different then if a model determines if itself suffered damage, such as black blood. This takes all modifiers into account and only if 1+ wounds were taken then the ability or effect goes into play.

After damaging triggers work the same way as determining if yourself is damaged, 1+ wounds after modifiers must be dealt to be able for trigger to function. 

Are these correct?

[Bengt]

22 hours ago, Myyrä said:

How in the **** did you come up with this?

Hallucinogens says that "This model's Ml Attack Actions deal +2 damage." Condition on a model is that model's effect, so timing couldn't possibly cause this weirdness, especially when this isn't a question about timing but math order and the rules say that "Modifiers should be applied in the following order: Multiply, Divide, Add, and then Subtract.".

Well there is this FAQ entry. I've assumed it meant that Actions that didn't have any damage wouldn't benefit, but I guess someone could interpret it differently.

95. Can we get some more details on how the Nurse’s Hallucinogens Condition works?
Sure! The Hallucinogens Condition causes any Ml Actions which deal damage to deal +2 damage. So if the
Action causes no damage, it does not beneft from the +2. However, if the model creates multiple damage
sources with a single Attack (such as with Hammerfall) each damage source would also beneft from the +2
damage as it is a part of the Action.

[Myyrä]

47 minutes ago, Bengt said:

Well there is this FAQ entry. I've assumed it meant that Actions that didn't have any damage wouldn't benefit, but I guess someone could interpret it differently.

95. Can we get some more details on how the Nurse’s Hallucinogens Condition works?
Sure! The Hallucinogens Condition causes any Ml Actions which deal damage to deal +2 damage. So if the
Action causes no damage, it does not beneft from the +2. However, if the model creates multiple damage
sources with a single Attack (such as with Hammerfall) each damage source would also beneft from the +2
damage as it is a part of the Action.

That kind of makes sense. The FAQ doesn't say before reductions, so it's kind of easy to get confused there.

[Angelshard]

So hinamatsu in a zoraida crew could deal 3/4/5 on his first attack and then 3/4/5 +3 from condition on the second?

That seems brutal

[Ludvig]

I was sure there was an faq about triggers not getting the extra damage unless they are an entirely new attack? Can't remember which number.

[Angelshard]

But this isn't a trigger it's additional damage dealt by a condition as a result of damaging

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

But this isn't a trigger it's additional damage dealt by a condition as a result of damaging

It's actually an ability that makes the condition itself deal more damage while it's damaging. It isn't "first check if poison does any damage, if so apply this too" it simply says that poison will deal an additional two damage when it deals damage.

[Angelshard]

Ah fair. Then I get it

[Kinginyello]

43 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

It's actually an ability that makes the condition itself deal more damage while it's damaging. It isn't "first check if poison does any damage, if so apply this too" it simply says that poison will deal an additional two damage when it deals damage.

Awesome, ty.