Blast mechanic question

[Rostislav]

Merris Lacroix has 6'   immune to  damage.

Sonnia Criid attacks and kills Merris.
Will  generated from her attacks deal  damage?

[Myyrä]

14 hours ago, Rostislav said:

And as so, what happens first? Marris is removed or blasts are resolved?

Rulebook states that model dropped to 0 or less wounds is immediately removed from play.

Rules also say the model isn't immediately removed from play, so no one knows really.

[icebreaker]

36 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Rules also say the model isn't immediately removed from play, so no one knows really.

That mean than Adran the most right of us. This sound really crazy and need to be errated, but the Adrans version is most close to the rules.

[Myyrä]

1 hour ago, icebreaker said:

That mean than Adran the most right of us. This sound really crazy and need to be errated, but the Adrans version is most close to the rules.

Adran is right that Merris can be killed before other models take damage. The problem is that we don't know if that will prevent the other models from taking damage or not.

[icebreaker]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

What about my suggestion? 

It's a great suggestion, and we definitely will use it in local games untill It will be errated/added to FAQ. But no offense it is just an good  suggestion based on common logic, not on the rules.

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, icebreaker said:

It's a great suggestion, and we definitely will use it in local games untill It will be errated/added to FAQ. But no offense it is just an good  suggestion based on common logic, not on the rules.

Why is it less based on rules than the others? You determine effects before you decide the order to take damage on models. While determining those effects you are not allowed to use damage as an effect so how can you ever get to the step of them taking damage?

[icebreaker]

3 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Adran is right that Merris can be killed before other models take damage. The problem is that we don't know if that will prevent the other models from taking damage or not.

Pfft, If we do not know something it mean that Adran did the most correct interpretation of the rules we have. It's crazy but it the most close to the rules we have

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, icebreaker said:

Pfft, If we do not know something it mean that Adran did the most correct interpretation of the rules we have. It's crazy but it the most close to the rules we have

Yes, he reiterated what is written under the rules of blasts correctly. Not sure if that counts as in interpretation.

 

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Why is it less based on rules than the others? You determine effects before you decide the order to take damage on models. While determining those effects you are not allowed to use damage as an effect so how can you ever get to the step of them taking damage?

I would say it was less based on the rules because the rules have told us that you resolve the order of damage seperately, and that the order you resolve the damage in can matter. 

I don't think we've ever truly decided if we check for things as they happen, or as their ability resolves. 

[Ludvig]

10 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would say it was less based on the rules because the rules have told us that you resolve the order of damage seperately, and that the order you resolve the damage in can matter. 

I don't think we've ever truly decided if we check for things as they happen, or as their ability resolves. 

The ability is always active. I just noticed that it was worded as an immunity however, I was sure she said they just didn't suffer damage.

Since an immunity only prevents it while actually bring applied I have to agree that you have the best interpretation. If she had said they couldn't suffer damage from blasts or something they would never had been entered into the "models we need to resolve damage against". Sorry for needlessly confusing this, we can all go back to just killing Merris with the initial damage.  

[PositronMike]

Just a query that may make this more complicated, to suffer damage from a blast you need to be in LOS from the model hit by the attack. If you remove the model by reducing it to 0 wounds before resolving blast damage, no models can have line of sight to the target of the attack therefore no one can suffer damage from the blast. This is not normally a problem however with Merris if she is on the table models are immune to blasts and if you kill her with the attack and remove her from the table models now have no line of sight to the model hit by the attack and can't suffer damage from the blasts.

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, PositronMike said:

Just a query that may make this more complicated, to suffer damage from a blast you need to be in LOS from the model hit by the attack. If you remove the model by reducing it to 0 wounds before resolving blast damage, no models can have line of sight to the target of the attack therefore no one can suffer damage from the blast. This is not normally a problem however with Merris if she is on the table models are immune to blasts and if you kill her with the attack and remove her from the table models now have no line of sight to the model hit by the attack and can't suffer damage from the blasts.

You decide which models to resolve against and put them in the imaginary resolution pile. I don't think you can change who is in that pile after you've started resolving.

[icebreaker]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

You decide which models to resolve against and put them in the imaginary resolution pile. I don't think you can change who is in that pile after you've started resolving.

There is no any pile in the rules, even mode, there is a prove that in the game NOTHING happens in save time - General Timing on page 51. This is a base axiom of the game, everything happens one by one. 

[Ludvig]

20 minutes ago, icebreaker said:

There is no any pile in the rules, even mode, there is a prove that in the game NOTHING happens in save time - General Timing on page 51. This is a base axiom of the game, everything happens one by one. 

Just the other day I was debating why abilities go off based on your location at the time of the event that "sprung" even if their effect is later resolved at another location. I think the ruleset assumes some sort of hidden pile for when a lot of stuff happens at the same time. It's still sequential, you've just passed the step where you decide which models to resolve against.

Deciding which models to resolve damage against in the first place looks like it happens before you start resolving damage against each model. Call it what you like but I don't think iu can add new models to be damsged by the blast after you have started resolving damage because the step of determining who auffered damage has been passed.

You can't all of a sudden go: "duh, I don't remember if this model was supposed to suffer blast damage or not" because that was decided before you started doing damage to the first model.

[icebreaker]

12 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I think the ruleset assumes some sort of hidden pile

It sounds logical and like true. But the problem is in - it is hidden and we assumes. Sometimes its too difficult to explain it to the people that getting to Malifaux from other table top games. As long as it is not in the rulebook the anyone can say - "It's just a homerule" and will be quite right.

[Ludvig]

4 minutes ago, icebreaker said:

It sounds logical and like true. But the problem is in - it is hidden and we assumes. Sometimes its too difficult to explain it to the people that getting to Malifaux from other table top games. As long as it is not in the rulebook the anyone can say - "It's just a homerule" and will be quite right.

That would be the point of this forum and the faq I think, to set those people straight if they don't accept the local way.

[PositronMike]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

You decide which models to resolve against and put them in the imaginary resolution pile. I don't think you can change who is in that pile after you've started resolving.

Surely when you are putting the models into that pile you can't therefore add models in Merris' aura as she makes them immune to blast damage. Therefore the only model that can be in that pile is Merris.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, PositronMike said:

Surely when you are putting the models into that pile you can't therefore add models in Merris' aura as she makes them immune to blast damage. Therefore the only model that can be in that pile is Merris.

You resolve effects from being under the blast and she doesn't make them entirely immune to the blast, just to applying the actual damage at the later step. So you put them i the pile to resolve effects which include but isn't limited to damage. At the time they are actually recieving damage from it ahe is dead and her aura gone. Or well, it's a mess really, no matter which way you twist it people seem to diaagree with you.

[solkan]

8 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

I would always rule the models within the  do NOT take damage.

Regardless of the order of blasts, the various damage output from the shot all happen during the same action, so Merris might be killed but she isn't removed until after the shot has had it's effect, including the blasts. 

Choosing to kill a model, and THEN the "delayed" blasts damage others, now without the protective aura from the model killed at the same time, seems an awful lot like the old: "it's doesn't say in the rules that I CAN'T to this..." -argument. 

You appear to be mistaking a "This is what the rules say to do" argument for someone making up rules.

8 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Perhaps that's just me.

So you're ignoring the facts that:

1. The rules specify that you choose the order in which the damage is applied, meaning that the order matters.
2. The rules for killing a model specify that it's removed immediately.  (In some cases, removal is delayed.)

and makng up rules for how you think damage should work?

 

 

 

[Erik1978]

I don't believe the rules you describe were intended for shooting Merris, removing her aura, making the blasts that hit people around her not benefitting from the aura that was there when the shot landed.

I know rules as written and rule as intended is a slippery slope and all that but this would also open up for someone putting the blast on themselves, then declaring a trigger BEFORE the defender because the damage on himself is BEFORE the damage on the defender, wouldn't it?

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Erik1978 said:

I don't believe the rules you describe were intended for shooting Merris, removing her aura, making the blasts that hit people around her not benefitting from the aura that was there when the shot landed.

I know rules as written and rule as intended is a slippery slope and all that but this would also open up for someone putting the blast on themselves, then declaring a trigger BEFORE the defender because the damage on himself is BEFORE the damage on the defender, wouldn't it?

I don't think so. A model hit by a blast can't declare any triggers, only the defending and attacking model get triggers. The attackers trigger happens after the defenders trigger (if at the same.timing point). Since all of the damage is during step five most triggers will wait until you havw damaged every model.

I agree with you on the blast rules not anticipating this scenario though.

[Erik1978]

Am I remembering wrong or do some models have a trigger "after suffering damage", wouldn't that apply to a blast? 

On the off note, I suppose any rule giving Gremlins a hard time would be a good thing, they can take it.

[santaclaws01]

1 minute ago, Erik1978 said:

Am I remembering wrong or do some models have a trigger "after suffering damage", wouldn't that apply to a blast? 

On the off note, I suppose any rule giving Gremlins a hard time would be a good thing, they can take it.

Are you mixing up triggers an abilities? How is a model going to declare a trigger if they don't make a duel?

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Erik1978 said:

Am I remembering wrong or do some models have a trigger "after suffering damage", wouldn't that apply to a blast? 

On the off note, I suppose any rule giving Gremlins a hard time would be a good thing, they can take it.

An ability would apply but only the defending and attacking model gets triggers. If the attacker has an"after damaging" it only applies to after damaging the target of the attack (qlthough could apply stuff to every model if it said so). Timing would atill be pretty fixed.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Erik1978 said:

Am I remembering wrong or do some models have a trigger "after suffering damage", wouldn't that apply to a blast? 

On the off note, I suppose any rule giving Gremlins a hard time would be a good thing, they can take it.

Some models do have such a trigger, but triggers are only for the defender and the attacker (because they are the only ones involved in a duel).

Some models have abilities that happen when they suffer damage. Choosing the order you damage models to minimise this kind of thing in the advantage of the attacker is the exact reason that the rules as written cover. 

There are very few times when the order of Damage matters (This, things like Hamlin and stolen under the same blast, models with hard to kill under the blast along with models that have damage effects when they are damaged such as Black blood, Lenny and his aura). This instance is obviously a situation when the timing matters. If we followed your version that models aren't removed until the action ends, then I think we are down to just cases where the model has hard to kill and will suffer damage from multiple sources for when the order of damage applies. 

[DXXXVIII]

NURSE:
After succeeding, the target gains the following Condition until the
end of the Turn: “Hallucinogens: This model’s Ml Attack Actions deal +2
damage. This model may only declare Ml Actions.”

THE BIGGER THEY ARE (Upgrade):
The Bigger They Are...: This model's  Actions
which deal damage deal +1 damage to non-Master
models with one or more Upgrades attached.

The blast deals diminished
damage to models who aren't the original target. The
damage dealt by a blast from a damage flip is one step lower
than the damage flipped for the initial blast. An Attack with
a 2/3/4 that deals Moderate damage, for instance, would
place one Blast Marker (due to the one b on the Moderate
damage), and deal 3 damage to the original target, and 2
damage to each other model within the blast.

How much damage does Hannahs Blast deal if I up her with the condition and the upgrade? 
(1) Ghost Censer (Ml 6t / Rst: Df / Rg: 3): Target suffers 2/4/6 damage.

Would the  of her medium flip still deal 2 damage or would it deal 5 damage to other models with upgrades and 4 damage to models without upgrades?