Fluff topic, Should the Neverborn Trio have teamed up with Titania?

[Da Git]

So for me, the core of the Neverborn are The Trio (TM), the 3 witches, the hag, the mother and the maiden.  In other words, Zoraida, Lilith & Pandora.  The rest really are their own separate entities really, coming and going as they please. 

Now The Trio's aims seem to be (in order of priority):

1. Preserving Malifaux & the Neverborn race
2. Destroying the Tyrants
3. Removing the stain that is the human race from OUR world!

So with these in mind, why don't you think they teamed up with Titania?  Their aims seem to be identical.  Titania wants (again in order of Priorities):

1. Preserving the world of Malifaux
2. Destroying the Tyrants
3. Reclaim her rightful position as Queen of Malifaux (maybe in place of 1&2, depending on if she would sacrifice herself to save the world, I think she would as that was what drove her to bargain with the Grave Spirit, lose her eyes & life)
4. Restore the Fae (maybe in place of 3)
5. Remove the vermin known as humanity from Malifaux
6. Do something about the Neverborn...  It's not clear what she intends, but IMO, her short term goals are to treat with them as allies before taking rulership of them in the long term... it's not like she's dying anytime soon!

 

So clearly, I would have thought the whole enemy of my enemy is my friend approach would have been a good starting point for The Trio.  Afterall, Titania was the one who defeated the Tyrants in the first place.  One would suppose she could do it again.  Whilst The Trio believe (through half forgotten legends) she betrayed her people, they don't know how and to what extent.  If they did, then I'd assume Lilith at the very least would have attacked straight away as she tends not to like necromancy and Titania's bargaining with the Grave Spirit sort of released that in Malifaux...

On the other hand, since Lilith decided to refuse the Autumn Queen's offer of alliance, why don't you think Lilith didn't attack?  Sure, she wasn't certain of a quick victory, but every moment she delays, Titania is rebuilding her strength too...  She had an army of Nephillim (including a fair few matures), Pandora & her woes and a bunch of other Neverborn...  Titania has her Autumn knights and whilst we don't know numbers, it didn't really sound like their was a lot of them.   My money's on the Neverborn.  (Note: This would have destroyed the fluff for Titania, so from a company aspect, this result would have been rather silly!)  They could have at least had a bit of a tussle, now Lilith looks super weak; again helping Titania recruit a heap of Neverborn into her ranks, a number which should only grow.  Also there's the strong possibility of Nekima joining up with the Autumn queen now; to spite her sister, if nothing else!  So really, this confrontation seems like a disaster for The Trio.

Thoughts?

[Azkral]

SPOILER ALERT

 

The trio is not united in this moment: Pandora is too unstable, and she manipulated Lilith to be more angry in the meeting with Titania (only the Box knows why). Zoraida is too busy to attend Titania, and Lilith fears a war between the neverborn but she is too stubborn to kneel. 

 

On the other Hans, Titania must fear the trio, if not, she would have met them before speak to Lucius.

[MetaphoricDragn]

I think one of the most interesting potential story points is what Nekima will do with this situation.  I think we really need to know if Despair is in Pandora's box or not.  An unexpected tyrant manipulating things would explain some of that.  However, the trio, despite supposing to be anti tyrant willing allied themselves with Nytemare.  I forget what their connections are with Lynch, cause Huggy is close enough to probably being in Titania's crosshairs, so Lilith would potentially be giving up 2 allies to align with Titania, as well as her control over the nephillim.  

[Sybaris]

Titania might be what's needed to quell the tyrants encroachment, although that would have so much repercussion on the world that i doubt they will go that route. I am afraid that they can't get rid of the tyrants by now...they are directly involved in too many crews across factions.

I can't see Lilith ally with Titania, ever.  Now as you said, Nekima is boiling under Lilith since a over a century and Titania could tempt her to make a deal. While Nekima would undoubtedly not be happy Under titania, vengeance on her sister plus leadership of the nephilim might be enough of a promise to accept. I've always seen Lilith as an outcast more than a leader for Nephilim...this could be an interesting twist. For one i would love to see a reversal of fortunes between the two sisters, if only for the duration of a campaign or event.

As for the trio, i think it has sailed. In any case, if they are to act as leaders of a faction, they should do just that, lead...and we'd need more stories of them doing so. None of them seems to be thinking straight from the more recent stories. Titania really came of as a true leader compared to them in the last book.

 

 

[Gnomezilla]

Isn't Lilith just a sort of echo of Titania anyway, more of a doppelganger who's forgotten where she's come from but maintains a nagging sense of rulership as a duty than a leader, leading from the front, in her own right?

[Jernmajoren]

Considering that Titania was dethroned by her own followers because of the danger she posed, it seems unlikely the 3 would ally themselves with her longterm.

Now the question is would an alliance between Titania and the 3 improve the odds of them achieving their goals?

The short answer is: no.

While there could be some short term progress, you could not have a leader you already imprisoned once running around, and still maintain a coherent leadership.

Since its doubtful the 3 will relinquish their power over the Neverborn to Titania, nor is it likely that Titania giving up on becoming queen of the Neverborn, its inevitable that some sort of conflict will break out between them imo. 

 

[Mason]

54 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Isn't Lilith just a sort of echo of Titania anyway, more of a doppelganger who's forgotten where she's come from but maintains a nagging sense of rulership as a duty than a leader, leading from the front, in her own right?

Lilith is not a doppleganger. She's a Nephilim.

The reason she looks like a human is, well...   explained in the TTB Core Rules? 

[Sybaris]

It does, although it doesn't go as far as explaining how come Nephilim accept it for their leader. I would expect a brutal race to see it as a weakness rather than strenght. Fine for undercover operations, but not so inspiring to lead troops. Of course neverborn mindset is far from understandable from a human point of view...but at least i hope that Lilith's story comes to a closure at a point...maybe she even takes on her true form, after all.

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, Sybaris said:

It does, although it doesn't go as far as explaining how come Nephilim accept it for their leader. I would expect a brutal race to see it as a weakness rather than strenght. Fine for undercover operations, but nobody dress as their enemies to give speeches. At least i hope that Lilith's story comes to a closure at a point...maybe she even takes on her true form, after all.

Care to enlighten those of us who haven't read it? I have a huge problem getting the different nephilim shapes to make sense.

[Sybaris]

Mmm come to think of it if Mason is referring to the new incoming book...now i understand the smiley. I haven't read it of course. I was refering to existing material from either TTB or Malifaux.  To make it short, it was always about a practical way to enact a terror campaign on the "prey". Can't wait to see what new material they come up with.

I agree with you, Nephilim shape is a mess apart from the Tot-Young-Mature-Nekima lineage...Imho Lilith should have done away with her old "metal" appearance when they made her plastic. No horns, no hoofs...no wings...clothes...she's nothing like a nephilim and in fact looks like the "enemy". Titania looks like a more suitable model.

[Ludvig]

Maybe nephilim have a bunch of "genders" where tot-young-mature/Nekima is one, tot-something-inbetween-completely human looking like Graves and Lilith is another and Lilitu and Lelu are stages of genus three and four? It's strange how Graves is nephilim-mimic if Lilith is pure nephilim. Seems like her and Nekima are half-sisters at best and someone screwed a doppelgänger. Would explain the rivalry...

We also know for a fact that you can get turned into a nephilim like Tuco and look more nephilim-esque than Lilith to boot!

[MetaphoricDragn]

Pre Nephillim neverborn imprisoned Titania fearing the power of the grave spirit.  Look where that got them.  Where are all the fae?  pretty clear the outcome of imprisoning Titania was bad for her former followers.  I don't think that imprisoned argument holds merit. 

[Sybaris]

I am pretty sure we'll see regular autumn knights in a release of the future. On the cover page of the last book, we do see alot of "green striped dead looking" people crawling out, and i do believe there is more than 3 knights+aeslin.

We've no idea what Titania's power was like back then nor what she did to scare off her own people like that...it had to be quite bad, considering the tyrants were even more powerful then.

Can't wait for the showdown...but first i hope there's one coming. I don't think the other factions are in such a troubled state as neverborn atm.

[Ludvig]

14 hours ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

Pre Nephillim neverborn imprisoned Titania fearing the power of the grave spirit.  Look where that got them.  Where are all the fae?  pretty clear the outcome of imprisoning Titania was bad for her former followers.  I don't think that imprisoned argument holds merit. 

There is some mention of Titania seeing characteristics of the old fae in thw different neverborn I think. It implies they evolved into the neverborn, not that they met their doom.

[Mason]

10 hours ago, Sybaris said:

We've no idea what Titania's power was like back then nor what she did to scare off her own people like that...it had to be quite bad, considering the tyrants were even more powerful then.

It's mentioned in a few TTB places.

She betrayed her people by making a deal with the Grave Spirit and built Kythera, giving her a whole lot of power that she then used to kill the mortal forms of the Tyrants.

[Azkral]

Do you think Seamus and Titania are going to be friends?

[Sybaris]

At the very least she might offer a deal to Hayreddin.

[MetaphoricDragn]

13 hours ago, Sybaris said:

Can't wait for the showdown...but first i hope there's one coming. I don't think the other factions are in such a troubled state as neverborn atm.

There is certainly opportunity for it.  Ramos has left on his trip, its clear Kaeris and Toni have different opinions, and Tina isn't getting friendlier.  The Dragon is dormant, what will happen to 10T without its power/influence in the near term.  We have a new Governor General that's creating a power shift in the Guild, Sonnia is injured, McMourning stepping up.   Rezzers and Outcasts remain without ever fully getting along.  Though Plague is stepping up his end game and Von Schill was injured.

[Azkral]

3 hours ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

There is certainly opportunity for it.  Ramos has left on his trip, its clear Kaeris and Toni have different opinions, and Tina isn't getting friendlier.  The Dragon is dormant, what will happen to 10T without its power/influence in the near term.  We have a new Governor General that's creating a power shift in the Guild, Sonnia is injured, McMourning stepping up.   Rezzers and Outcasts remain without ever fully getting along.  Though Plague is stepping up his end game and Von Schill was injured.

And Gremlins are as oblivious and happy as ever. 

[EnternalVoid]

Mason pointed out the big point, Titania can say all she want that she was the linchpin that stopped the Tyrants the first time, but she did so by harnessing power from a Primordial Plane of Death. 

Congrats you accomplished your goal by Poisoning the Entire World including your own people using something that might actually have been worse then the things you were trying to stop, wait to go Titania.  That is like having enemies on your own soil and using nukes to clear them out.  Sure you did what you set out to do, but the price was high and the people under you none to happy you went so far.

Simply put the way I see it, you cannot trust Titania because you don't know what she will do and what she has become.  She might have once been the Queen of all, but you don't know what she is now.  She could be tainted host to powers from the Grave Spirit, she could be a madwoman that would lead her people to self destruction because she can, she might be willing to finish all the neverborn off to win thinking they can continue as some sort of undead race.  You cannot risk your people by just trusting her worlds.

On the same hand, fighting her is a loss of precious resources.  You are already in deep in a war on multiple fronts and barely keeping the tipping point from happening and everything going south.  At the moment she has her sights on your enemies.  Why waste what you have when you can hopefully let someone else do it for you?  More so when you are unsure what sort of power she might still possess and whether she might have a trump card waiting.  Might be better off pitting some of your enemies against her and having both sides duke it out so you can play clean up with the left overs.

Really the biggest problem to trusting her is that you don't know if she can be trusted.  If you could magically tell lies from truth, read minds, or put some sort of constraint to control her then you might, but she is to dangerous to trust otherwise.

[Da Git]

Lots of great replies here! Awesome!

Hopefully we can see some more fluff going on in Book 5... One of the big kind of problems Wyrd might have is now they have so many story arcs starting to take shape, that to try to do them all justice would take a book per faction almost (in some cases, almost a book per master!).  I'd really like to see some more put into Wyrd Chronicles... There's Titania & The Trio + Lucius, The Arcanist civil war (hopefully!), Kirai + Court of Two, Mooly saving Phillip + whatever the everyone else is up to!

Anyways, back on topic, @EnternalVoid, The Trio should absolutely not trust Titania... However, by teaming up with her, they might actually be able to defeat the Tyrants.  They also, don't know how she did it, they don't know her connection to the Grave Spirit & bringing (literally) Death to Malifaux... If they did, I think the meeting would not have been a parlance, but an open attack.

So from my perspective (quite likely wrong, but here goes), I would have gone with the Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend principal.  Now Lilith looks weak and more & more Neverborn are kneeling before Titania anyway.  At least if they had of allied, The Trio could have remained in control.  Titania represents hope, a real chance to defeat the Tyrants and return Malifaux back to its glory days (quite possibly not true, but I'd say that's how a fair few Neverborn would see it).  For your average Neverborn, everything's gone downhill since Titania was imprisoned, and Titania can blame it on the weakness of her followers for betraying and imprisoning her...  It doesn't have to be true, it just has to be believable!

So long story short, I would have thought, allying with Titania to use her strength & keep an eye on her (atm, she's a wild card as the Trio don't really have any idea what she's up to (can't trust Lucius as far as you can throw him!).  Deal with the Tyrants then deal with Titania, and if Titania's plan is too insane, at least now you know and she's within sword reach...

Leaving Titania to her own devices could spell disaster...  keep you friends close & your enemies closer and all that...

[EnternalVoid]

Well remember that the Trio seem to have some plans of their own concerning the Tyrants *Look at Zoraida bringing Vik and her Masamune to Malifaux in the first book*.  Just their plans largely seem to be built around damage control and handling the Tyrants individually and denying them what they need to succeed.  At the moment ya things are balanced on a razor's edge but the Tyrants are also undermining each other as well, none are working together and often one or another is secretly foiling the plan of another.

The problem with teaming up with Titania is you increase the amount of interaction, which is a double edge sword.  Sure you keep a better eye on her and might be able to harness her gifts but Neverborn politics are rough, it is not easy staying on top.  From that little encounter it becomes clear that Titania is a talker, something that is dangerous when your people are swayable and drawn to power.  Also does she really represent hope here?  She handled the Tyrants by Destroying their world almost.  What says she can win even now save her own words?  Words that may well be lies to get back to her throne or only half truths that victory is only through mutual destruction again.  Mind you Lilith is already failing as some of her people turn to Titania anyway but you let her get her roots in deep into your organization it will happen faster and it might well be a Nekima/Lilith issue all over again with someone possible pulling leadership out from under you.  Like you said, her words don't have to be true, they just have to be believable.  Better to keep those words as far as possible from your people.

Honestly it looks like Lilith went there to Observe Titania and then destroy her if possible by the force she brought and her first selection of words.  She was goating the Autumn knights to a fight with her insults but Titania had seen it coming *likely as she can observe people's characters from a distance* and made sure to make Aeslin not react to provoking.  It looked like Lilith wanted Bloodshed but wanted to have the Autumn court throw the first punch *likely so it makes it easier to label the court as an enemy*.  But as Titania noted Lilith hesitated a bit after Titania's display of power when she stopped her people from attacking.  Of course Lilith does not know that Titania is drawing power from her throne, IE this is where she is strongest, and Lilith's hesitation is justified as she expected Titania to still be fairly weak.  It really was Pandora who threw everything around every which way as Lilith's plan really seemed to just be to see them and provoke them, not actually discuss with them.

I also suspect they do know about Titania doing the whole Grave Spirit thing, when Lilith pulls Pandora away to talk to her, though Titania can hear them with her power, Lilith says "I'll tell you why not.  Because if this is the real Autumn Queen, she is more treacherous than Zoraida.  She's the one that opened Kythera, remember?  She overthrew the Tyrants, All of them.  At the same time.  Her own people had to imprison her to prevent their destruction".  So they know Titania was the one that brought the Grave Spirit to Malifaux, poisoning the world, and she is aware that Titania was bad enough her own people had to deal with her.

Really the only reason there was not war there in that court was Pandora manipulating both sides.  I suspect Titania plan is not one that the Trio, well Lilith and Zoraida at least, will agree with.  But knowing that Titania will work to keep the real scope of it out of sight to get her way.  By cutting her off as much as possible it is harder for her to move in your shadow for her own gain, forcing her to expend her own resources for goals as much as possible to better catch her in the act.

 

Really for Lilith there was no good answer to dealing with Titania.  Just it becomes a question of which answer is worse.

[spikes]

Just to add on, Titania is queen. Is there such a thing as allying her? I believe she expects the trio to kneel, even if not now, it will be later. I highly doubt Lilith is the kneeling sort. 

[Vorschlag]

I'm disinclined to encourage the "beliefs" propagated by those who buried Titania and "wrote" what we know of Neverborn "history" as I have no doubt that they would be disinclined to write on the matter without prejudice or bias.

What we "know" or "believe" to be the case can now be challenged as we now can tap into a direct source rather than propaganda from a bygone age or a tale twisted by the reinterpretation and retelling over a millennia or two?

Of course that doesn't mean that we have a source without bias but in all likelihood the truth of the matter exists somewhere betwixt the two polarized views, beliefs or experiences.
Perhaps a creature which survived the age of the tyrants could give an opinion?

Since the box is clearly a tyrant as is Chompy, that only leaves the hungering darkness as a possible unbiased view point, have we had an opinion from the giant talking phallus shaped parasite?

Should the wyrd sisters have taken on Titania, well if they had they would be doing the work of a Tyrant that they're supposedly unaware is in their midst.

What needs to happen is Titania needs a seamstress ... as she really needs a dress befitting a queen, then Lucius needs to develop necrophilia so we can have a decent Neverborn royal family, instead of .... well you know who.

[Ludvig]

@Vorschlag I feel  a diorama coming up!  

Titania should really get some new clothes, if I ever get her there will be massive modification work ahead.