Is Fingers too expensive?

[Macumazahn]

Well it's just as the tittle of the topic says.

I've asked myself this question almost since the first time I used him. I mean he usually delivers (or used to, in the CG 2016 he feels much less useful for some reason) but at the same time he does no damage and he's not that resilient at all, so any opponent will get rid of him pretty easily, and that's 10ss, or more, wasted.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that you will easily fall into the trap of taking too much support and too little actual workhorses for them to support when you take Fingers and then all the usual support. But no, I don't think that he is too expensive. I think that he is awesome.

But how do you get him killed? My Fingers usually survives the game. Between nice stats, one of the best Df/Wp Triggers in the game and very nice healing capability I find him very durable. Likely the most durable of the Gremlin Henchmen!

[Macumazahn]

26 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

But how do you get him killed? My Fingers usually survives the game. Between nice stats, one of the best Df/Wp Triggers in the game and very nice healing capability I find him very durable. Likely the most durable of the Gremlin Henchmen!

Usually Fingers is very problematic and annoying, so the opponent just focuses on him and blows him away. His abilities lead him more often than not to be into the thick of it, and being the most durable gremlin henchman doesn't really mean much, a good chunk of models can destroy him in one activation. I also think Mancha Roja is more durable.

I like the guy and I used him to great effect many times (and he survived) but usually I will have to leave him aside and use another support a.k.a Trixiebelle or Sammy, even in heavy marker schemes, of wich there not that many anymore, I think.

That's why I'm dubious about his price. Maybe 8ss would be more appropiate?

 

[Four_N_Six]

I find that Fingers doesn't die unless I want him to. He and the First Mate are my go to models for most schemes, so I do have a bias here, but he's just great. I'm fine with his cost, mostly because I don't find myself really caring about upgrades on him. 

Like I said, he doesn't die if I don't want him to. Loudest Squeal is obviously great, he can stone to prevent, and he has a healing flip that doesn't require a target number. Toss Dirty Cheater onto him. When you make a healing flip, cheat in your low useless cards, so now you're healing 2 at a minimum, and he can technically do it 3 times. I have had multiple games where he's spent 3 AP keeping himself alive, and then making sure I have a mask to squeal him the hell out of there. 

[Clement]

Think of him as an 8 ss henchman who happens to always take Quality Mash Liquor.

[Flinroz]

Honestly I'd still take him if he was 11 stones, haha.

 

Easily my favorite henchman. I think the only time he has ever died was in a game where I got tabled.

[spooky_squirrel]

If you find yourself asking this question, there's a decent chance that you're not using him for the right job and crew. I mainly put Fingers on the table with Brewmaster to run/deny schemes while Brewmaster and Wesley tie up models somewhere else and work the Strategy/deny opposing Schemes. In full disclosure, this is usually as Ten Thunders, so my hiring pool is quite different than a straight Gremlin player's and I'm paying for Running Tab to bring in Brewmaster's buddies, Binge to up the ante on the denial game already, and Drinking "Problem" because double healing on a cheatable flip in a Tri-Chi crew feels nice; especially if I'm running the Ten Thunders drunken monks (Fermented River Monks) as well.

What I look at when I'm hiring him is the Chatty and Don't Mind Me abilities. Reckless is nice, lets him take a wound in order to drop a marker, move, and drop a second marker when needed, but it's the scheme threat that I'm wanting. From the PullMyFinger entry for him:

 

Quote

First, he's got Don't Mind Me. He can take Interact Actions while engaged. This can be really handy, since he can march right up and perform a variety of interacts.

Meanwhile, he also stops enemies from doing the same with Chatty. They can't drop Scheme Markers, or get rid of Distracted or Cursed Object, or Deliver a Message. Keep this in mind. Fingers kills enemy VP.

He also has I Saws It First!, an incredible tactical action that places a friendly Scheme Marker in base contact with an enemy Scheme Marker, then discards the enemy Scheme Marker. Note that this isn't an Interact, so an enemy's Chatty doesn't stop it. It's great for Spring the Trap, Plant Explosives, or just spoiling enemy Schemes.

 

Sure, he also hands out poison, but if I'm trying to use him to hurt opposing models, I'm using him wrong. If I want to do anything with his attacks, I want to hand out that poison to the Fermented River Monks and let them go create problems for my opponent.

[Blacks85]

It's an awesome model with the old schemes pool...with the new GG2016?

I've never used it a single time. Yes, in my opinion is overpriced even if in certain 2015 pool schemes can be super strong.

So I would probably say 8 / 9 SS should be its price to make it viable and competitive with trixie / sammy.

[Math Mathonwy]

I really, really love him in Headhunter. He often performs the whole Strat for me while denying it for my opponent thus essentially winning the game.

[Blacks85]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I really, really love him in Headhunter. He often performs the whole Strat for me while denying it for my opponent thus essentially winning the game.

hum, I will try it in headhunter

thats a good idea

[Dumb Luck]

I still think he's solid in GG2016. If people want to drop him, then they're putting effort into it. I've had similar thoughts with The First Mate. Our other options may do flashier things (Burt, Fran) but he has a place. 

[Blacks85]

31 minutes ago, Dumb Luck said:

I still think he's solid in GG2016. If people want to drop him, then they're putting effort into it. I've had similar thoughts with The First Mate. Our other options may do flashier things (Burt, Fran) but he has a place. 

Where is the place of First Mate?

I can see her only on the shelf

 

[spooky_squirrel]

16 minutes ago, Dumb Luck said:

I still think he's solid in GG2016. If people want to drop him, then they're putting effort into it. I've had similar thoughts with The First Mate. Our other options may do flashier things (Burt, Fran) but he has a place. 

That's just it. If you drop him into the right schemes, Fingers can gain/deny up to 6VP* in schemes by himself. Just his being in the crew will force your opponent to not pick schemes that rely on interacting or placing markers in fixed locations. GG2016 still has interact-intensive schemes that he shuts down hard just by turning on Chatty near the interact targets (Exhaust? Catch and Release? Mark For Death? Right. Good luck with that!). Marker schemes (Plant Explosives, Setup, Search the Ruins for example) rely on markers being in certain areas; his ability to interact while engaged is nice for you scoring those points, but his ability to convert an enemy marker is much better.

 

*No, I don't expect him to be a one-gremlin show pulling off Leave Your Mark and Undercover Entourage in the same game. I'm talking about forcing your opponent to choose schemes that are normally harder to score, or just screwing up their plans for the first couple of turns, then doing a reckless dash into the schemes your opponent is no longer in position to stop. Denial of schemes and bluffing schemes in GG2016 makes for an interesting game.

 

If any one model scores ~3 for you while denying ~3 for your opponent, it's worth the 8-13 stones you spent hiring it.

[Four_N_Six]

7 hours ago, Blacks85 said:

Where is the place of First Mate?

I can see her only on the shelf

 

My first mate replaced trixiebelle

[Math Mathonwy]

13 hours ago, Four_N_Six said:

My first mate replaced trixiebelle

One has a powerful and limited Push against enemies and some friends and Lure with most friendlies while being mostly a ranged piece that allows you to cheat Initiative and do some Scheme Marker tricks. The other is super mobile with a very versatile Push that affects only enemies and is specialized in eating enemy Scheme Markers while having some melee presence. I really don't see them as very similar at all, really.

[Dumb Luck]

On 22 October 2016 at 2:41 AM, Four_N_Six said:

My first mate replaced trixiebelle

Woah, you feeling okay there son?

[Four_N_Six]

3 hours ago, Dumb Luck said:

Woah, you feeling okay there son?

Better than I used to with Trixie. I don't like using required models, things that everyone says I need. It's the whole reason I love Malifaux, anything can work and there aren't set lists. Don't like roosters either. I do well enough at tournaments. Though there hasn't been one since Zipp arrived to try. 

[Sergrum]

I personally find him too expensive, perhaps in  Head Hunter that also has 2-3 scheme marker strats?

I never give him a fair shot to be honest. 10SS for no damage, man i just want to kill everything! Hard to run schemes if all the enemy is dead!

He's one of those models that i look at the card, and im like ok lets try him, and i don't know how to fit him in to my current builds easily.

 

[Flinroz]

On 10/28/2016 at 5:05 PM, Four_N_Six said:

Better than I used to with Trixie. I don't like using required models, things that everyone says I need. It's the whole reason I love Malifaux, anything can work and there aren't set lists. Don't like roosters either. I do well enough at tournaments. Though there hasn't been one since Zipp arrived to try. 

I honestly keep trying to like Trixie. Everyone is always singing her praises, and maybe I'm just doing something wrong but I never feel like I'm getting enough out of the stones i spend on her.

 

Fingers I can see doing things. He stops entire schemes on the enemy, and has more than one secured me 3-6 VP on his own, through being able to place/steal scheme marker at critical locations or just being nigh unkillable with 3 AP to heal and having the loudest squeel.

[-Loki-]

3 hours ago, Flinroz said:

I honestly keep trying to like Trixie. Everyone is always singing her praises, and maybe I'm just doing something wrong but I never feel like I'm getting enough out of the stones i spend on her.

I feel the same about the Doppleganger in Neverborn. Everyone recommends it as an auto take, but I've never gotten it to work as well as I'm told it should.

[Four_N_Six]

6 hours ago, Flinroz said:

I honestly keep trying to like Trixie. Everyone is always singing her praises, and maybe I'm just doing something wrong but I never feel like I'm getting enough out of the stones i spend on her.

 

Fingers I can see doing things. He stops entire schemes on the enemy, and has more than one secured me 3-6 VP on his own, through being able to place/steal scheme marker at critical locations or just being nigh unkillable with 3 AP to heal and having the loudest squeel.

 

3 hours ago, -Loki- said:

I feel the same about the Doppleganger in Neverborn. Everyone recommends it as an auto take, but I've never gotten it to work as well as I'm told it should.

This is exactly how I feel about Trixie and the Doppleganger.  Never got the hang of either one, because every game I bring them in, I regret it because whatever I need them to do I think "I could have brought X for this instead, and I like them better."  Cheating initiative is the only thing they have going, and there haven't been many games I've played where I considered losing initiative to be the reason that something went south.

[Bazlord_Prime]

7 hours ago, Four_N_Six said:

 

7 hours ago, Four_N_Six said:

Cheating initiative is the only thing they have going

 

Well, that's objectively incorrect - Trixie has an 18" range push which can be really good for either pushing enemy models away from your own, or pushing your own non-Gremlins way upfield. It's a bit niche, i guess, but using her to get The Sow 18" upfield (2 charges of 9" each) first turn is, actually, hilarious. And she can do similar things with McTavish, Waldegeist, Piglets, etc.

The Doppelganger is a good tarpit model , and she can copy Actions off of friendly or enemy non-leaders, so let your imagine run with that one.

So you're not feeling the love for any of the above - the fact is, both models bring more to the table - almost literally - than you're giving them credit for.

But since this thread was meant to be about Fingers, yeah - I kind of balk at the 10ss cost each time, although he has great functionality in the right circumstances, as has already been said. With Brewmaster, i always want to take Drinking Problem on Fingers, but 12ss hurts. That's probably okay tho - if he were cheaper he might end up being talked about in the same way as models like Francisco and the two mentioned above ;-)

[Sergrum]

Trixie- Try not running any upgrades on her (maybe dirty cheater), and spend all her AP trying to push key models away (with high crows if you have them) and pulling your own key models. If you want to heal/shoot use another model. 

 

[Four_N_Six]

5 hours ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Well, that's objectively incorrect - Trixie has an 18" range push which can be really good for either pushing enemy models away from your own, or pushing your own non-Gremlins way upfield. It's a bit niche, i guess, but using her to get The Sow 18" upfield (2 charges of 9" each) first turn is, actually, hilarious. And she can do similar things with McTavish, Waldegeist, Piglets, etc.

The Doppelganger is a good tarpit model , and she can copy Actions off of friendly or enemy non-leaders, so let your imagine run with that one.

So you're not feeling the love for any of the above - the fact is, both models bring more to the table - almost literally - than you're giving them credit for.

But since this thread was meant to be about Fingers, yeah - I kind of balk at the 10ss cost each time, although he has great functionality in the right circumstances, as has already been said. With Brewmaster, i always want to take Drinking Problem on Fingers, but 12ss hurts. That's probably okay tho - if he were cheaper he might end up being talked about in the same way as models like Francisco and the two mentioned above ;-)

Well I meant that it was the only unique thing they had going. Like I said, there are just models I prefer that can do similar things so I regret bringing them when I do. The cheating initiative is the one thing I can't get somewhere else, which becomes my reasoning for hiring them (if I think I'll need to) and then it never becomes an important factor so I don't do it. Then I regret the hire if I never end up cheating initiative. 

I understand why people like them, but it's just not quite enough my style. I've tried Trixie and her gun, never been impressed. I try to keep her near other models to get the slap triggers but it never seems to work out enough to be worth it. Scheme marker manipulation is her saving grace for me but it doesn't seem quite as important in GG2016 as it was for the older schemes. 

[Bazlord_Prime]

Fair enough. But i really do love her Push. I haven't played many games with her though, and have never tried to do the Slap thing, or even the scheme marker manipulation. But i like pushing Pigs upfield (could even do it with Gators, McTavish, etc) ;-)