Defensive, Protect and the FAQ - this can't be right...

[Mortarion]

There is a question (and answer) in the FAQ which puzzles me.

Quote

37) If a model gains a stackable Condition from two different sources each with a different timing for when the Condition ends, when does the Condition end? For example, if a model takes the Defensive Stance Action to gain Defensive +1 until the start of its next Activation, but then gains the Defensive Condition from the Guardian which lasts until the start of the Guardian’s Activation, when does the Condition end?
The most recent application of a stackable Condition determines its end point. So in the example above, the model would gain Defensive +1 which ends at the start of its next Activation. Then the model gains an additional Defensive +2 from the Guardian, which stacks to Defensive +3 and ends when the Guardian starts its next Activation or is removed from play. The end time on the Defensive gained from the Guardian is used because that was the most recent application of the Condition.

The answer seems simple enough. But what happens if this continues? Let's say that the model takes a defensive stance again in the next turn. The way I read the answer, that would stack with the previous Defensive +3 to a Defensive +4 and move the end time ahead to the start of the models next activation. And then the Guardian activates and uses Protect again, which makes the defensive condition +6 and moves the end time to the start of the Guardian's next activation. The guardian and the other models could keep on doing this forever (or until the opponent grows tired of it and kills the Guardian), constantly raising the Defensive condition and moving ahead the end time. I am sure this is not the way it is supposed to be, but what am I missing? Or does this actually work? 

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Emphasis mine, but the intent is that the additional bonus is what ends when the Guardians starts its next activation.

Let's say you've got Model A which takes the defensive action (paying all applicable costs). This grants them the Defensive +X condition, where X is the number of AP spent going defensive, which lasts until Model A activates again. The Guardian does its thing, and now Model A has Defensive +(X + 2), where the +2 lasts until the Guardian activates again.

 

This part is to forestall the argument that Model A would lose all defensive benefits when it activates. It loses the initial +X that it had from its own defensive action, but maintains the +2 from the Guardian until it activates. Similarly, if the Guardian activates before Model A, but does not reset the defensive bonus, Model A loses the +2 from the Guardian but retains its initial +X from its own defensive action.

The guardian is just giving the model the Defensive +2 condition with an end time of until the Guardian's next activation or it's removed from play. It's not some separate Defensive condition from whatever amount of Defensive the model already has. If that model's Defensive condition ends for any reason, the extra it got from the Guardian goes with it.

As for the question, yes, that is correct. You can stack up as much Defensive as you want with that, though keep in mind you can never flip more than 4 cards, so everything past Defensive +3 is basically useless.

If you want something crazy, Shenlong or Sensei Yu can do this on their own with Low River Syle.

[Adran]

Santa Claws has it exactly right.

It works exactly as you say, and you can stack huge levels of defensive by keeping changing the end time of the condition. 

He is also right that you never can flip more than 4 cards for a duel, so there isn't much advantage to having defensive +78. If you want to spend the guardians (0) and 1 Ap from the model every turn( plus a card normally) and constrain your activation order so they always alternate, then you can be flipping 4 cards picking the best for all of its df duels all game 

 

 

[Mortarion]

So, if I understand the voting system correctly, most people seem to agree that it actually does stack and postpone the end time forever. Allthough I would have prefered another answer, the maximum of four cards (that I completely forgot, that rule does not come into play that often) makes it a lot less insane. Thanks fo the answers!

22 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

...

If you want something crazy, Shenlong or Sensei Yu can do this on their own with Low River Syle.

So, I'm guessing that you mean that since Low River Style does not specify when the condition ends, it defaults to "End of turn" (Rulebook page 52)? Right?

But wouldn't that work against Shenlong whenever he's out-activated? Let's say he takes a Defensive stance for 1 AP and gains Defensive +1 until his next activation. If he then succeeds in a duel with an enemy model after his activation, he would get another Defensive +1, but the end time would be changed to "End of turn", which is sooner, but the most recent application of the condition. 

 

[Paddywhack]

10 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

So, if I understand the voting system correctly, most people seem to agree that it actually does stack and postpone the end time forever. Allthough I would have prefered another answer, the maximum of four cards (that I completely forgot, that rule does not come into play that often) makes it a lot less insane. Thanks fo the answers!

Correct. I am personally not a fan of that FAQ decision, but it doesn't really hurt the game that badly. It doesn't come up that often.

[Starrius]

So 2 guardians in a list could really stack up defensive on a model to never end?

[Ludvig]

On 2016-10-18 at 6:53 PM, Paddywhack said:

Correct. I am personally not a fan of that FAQ decision, but it doesn't really hurt the game that badly. It doesn't come up that often.

Considering how guardians aren't exactly OP it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. You can stack defence 'til kingdom come, a half-clever opponent will just force through one focused hit and do a large amount of damage, possibly one-shotting or two-shotting your model with that huge defensive stack.

[spooky_squirrel]

5 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Considering how guardians aren't exactly OP it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. You can stack defence 'til kingdom come, a half-clever opponent will just force through one focused hit and do a large amount of damage, possibly one-shotting or two-shotting your model with that huge defensive stack.

Or hitting them on Wp or Ht. This is something people already consider in order to avoid Df triggers. The maximum number of cards per flip is the real control of the potential flood.

[spooky_squirrel]

[redacted]

On reviewing my train of thought, I realized I was mentally crossing up the interactions of abilities, triggers, and conditions of the same name, such as Armor +x and how they interact.

Edited October 18, 2016 by spooky_squirrel
brain fart.